4 ms·

As a naturalized US citizen originally from Europe, I will never understand what's such a big deal about national ID, especially given that not having one degra

As a naturalized US citizen originally from Europe, I will never understand what's such a big deal about national ID, especially given that not having one degrades everything to some weird combination of de facto mandatory quasi-IDs, like SSN and driving licenses. It really seems irrational, irrespective of political leaning. It's funny when the Republicans, always so against the IDs, then scream so laud about voting fraud and voting ID requirements. You can't have it both ways. I believe in personal freedom and I am cautious of government overreach, etc. but the benefits of ID is just so huge, and I don't think it really changes much w.r.t. government ability to messes with you if they want to.

ike2792 2y ago
I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). The amount of things you can do without personally identifying yourself in some way is so small that I'm also not sure what additional power a Real ID gives to the government.
- tzs 2y ago
  > I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We are I think also the only one that both (1) has a significant number of eligible voters who do not have a photo ID and (2) in many states the party that controls the government and sets the rules for getting ID sets those rules to try to make it hard for people who tend to vote for the other party to get ID and make it easy for those who vote for their party to get ID. > We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you).
  - dpc_01234 2y ago
    In a functional political situation all sides would rationally talk with each other and agree on something that makes it workable. "National Id would be overwhelmingly positive, but here are the corner cases in which it doesn't work well, so let's have exceptions, alternatives, accommodations, etc. to make it work well for everyone. And "we're worried about this and that and that", so let's agree on some mechanisms to counterbalance it. > There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, ... They can still do that. But they would need an id. It's interesting however, what are their motivations. Are they just so poor that getting an Id is a burden? Is it a religious / ideological thing? Are they hiding from the government either due to distrust or some legal matters?
  - ike2792 2y ago
    > There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you). Do you know of any statistics on this? I knew a lot of people like this when I was growing up in the rural midwest in the 90s but it would have to be a lot more difficult to get by this way now.
    - tzs 2y ago
      Here's some. 23% of people making less than $25k/year do not have bank accounts [1]. 20% of Black households in the US do not have access to a car [2]. That one also says that 17% of Black households are unbanked. For Americans overall this [3] says 8.7% of households do not have access to a working vehicle. > I knew a lot of people like this when I was growing up in the rural midwest in the 90s but it would have to be a lot more difficult to get by this way now. It probably is. For example before 1996 flying on a commercial airline was about as easy as getting into a movie theater. If you had a ticket you got in. They didn't care if you were actually the one who bought the ticket. They stated caring after TWA Flight 800, and caring even more after 9/11. I think hotels check ID more now too. I'm sure there are other things. But a lot of those things are things that poor don't actually do much of. Another thing that probably makes it still feasible to get by that way is that people who don't have credit, cars, bank accounts, etc often live in communities with many other people in the same situation. Such a community is likely to have a significant underground economy that has developed to handle that. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-americans-are-living-without-a-bank-account.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-amer... [2] https://www.cbcfinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NewRoutestoEquity-Final5.pdf https://www.cbcfinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NewRoutes... [3] https://www.thezebra.com/resources/research/car-ownership-statistics/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/research/car-ownership-st...
lunarlull 2y ago
It's about not giving more info to the government than is necessary. There should be a minimal amount of info sharing from citizens to governments, ideally. The way some EU countries require citizens to register an address even if they don't have a license, and just 'in general', is super sketchy to me.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  The government already has all your information which makes this even more stupid. It's a bit like IRS already knows exactly how much you own, but you have to tell them.
  - lunarlull 2y ago
    Not every agency has access to every other agencies data, and that's how it should be. There is nothing stupid about implementing principle of least privilege at the government level in the context of data access. It is kind of stupid to advocate for just giving everything carte blanch to the government when they don't need it, as Europeans tend to be so eager to do. Yes, the government has access, but let then get a warrant if some agency has a reason to access it.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      You know agency can validate an ID without getting access to database of all users?
      - lunarlull 2y ago
        That's not an argument against my point in any way, and that little factoid doesn't solve the larger issue I note.

ike2792 2y ago

I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). The amount of things you can do without personally identifying yourself in some way is so small that I'm also not sure what additional power a Real ID gives to the government.

tzs 2y ago
> I am from the US and my understanding is that we are one of the only (if not the only) Western democracy that doesn't require photo ID for voting. We are I think also the only one that both (1) has a significant number of eligible voters who do not have a photo ID and (2) in many states the party that controls the government and sets the rules for getting ID sets those rules to try to make it hard for people who tend to vote for the other party to get ID and make it easy for those who vote for their party to get ID. > We do, however, need photo ID or at least a Social Security number for pretty much everything else (applying for loans, opening bank accounts, buying a house or car, starting a new job, getting married, etc). There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you).
- dpc_01234 2y ago
  In a functional political situation all sides would rationally talk with each other and agree on something that makes it workable. "National Id would be overwhelmingly positive, but here are the corner cases in which it doesn't work well, so let's have exceptions, alternatives, accommodations, etc. to make it work well for everyone. And "we're worried about this and that and that", so let's agree on some mechanisms to counterbalance it. > There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, ... They can still do that. But they would need an id. It's interesting however, what are their motivations. Are they just so poor that getting an Id is a burden? Is it a religious / ideological thing? Are they hiding from the government either due to distrust or some legal matters?
- ike2792 2y ago
  > There are a significant number of citizens who don't use credit, don't have bank accounts, don't have cars, work at off the record jobs that pay in cash or check (to cash a check all you need is someone you trust enough who has a bank account and then you can do a third party endorsement and let them cash it for you). Do you know of any statistics on this? I knew a lot of people like this when I was growing up in the rural midwest in the 90s but it would have to be a lot more difficult to get by this way now.
  - tzs 2y ago
    Here's some. 23% of people making less than $25k/year do not have bank accounts [1]. 20% of Black households in the US do not have access to a car [2]. That one also says that 17% of Black households are unbanked. For Americans overall this [3] says 8.7% of households do not have access to a working vehicle. > I knew a lot of people like this when I was growing up in the rural midwest in the 90s but it would have to be a lot more difficult to get by this way now. It probably is. For example before 1996 flying on a commercial airline was about as easy as getting into a movie theater. If you had a ticket you got in. They didn't care if you were actually the one who bought the ticket. They stated caring after TWA Flight 800, and caring even more after 9/11. I think hotels check ID more now too. I'm sure there are other things. But a lot of those things are things that poor don't actually do much of. Another thing that probably makes it still feasible to get by that way is that people who don't have credit, cars, bank accounts, etc often live in communities with many other people in the same situation. Such a community is likely to have a significant underground economy that has developed to handle that. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-americans-are-living-without-a-bank-account.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-amer... [2] https://www.cbcfinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NewRoutestoEquity-Final5.pdf https://www.cbcfinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NewRoutes... [3] https://www.thezebra.com/resources/research/car-ownership-statistics/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/research/car-ownership-st...

lunarlull 2y ago

It's about not giving more info to the government than is necessary. There should be a minimal amount of info sharing from citizens to governments, ideally. The way some EU countries require citizens to register an address even if they don't have a license, and just 'in general', is super sketchy to me.

dzhiurgis 2y ago
The government already has all your information which makes this even more stupid. It's a bit like IRS already knows exactly how much you own, but you have to tell them.
- lunarlull 2y ago
  Not every agency has access to every other agencies data, and that's how it should be. There is nothing stupid about implementing principle of least privilege at the government level in the context of data access. It is kind of stupid to advocate for just giving everything carte blanch to the government when they don't need it, as Europeans tend to be so eager to do. Yes, the government has access, but let then get a warrant if some agency has a reason to access it.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    You know agency can validate an ID without getting access to database of all users?
    - lunarlull 2y ago
      That's not an argument against my point in any way, and that little factoid doesn't solve the larger issue I note.