4 ms·

Location data show that race affects citations and fines for speeding

75 points by marojejian 2y ago

josefritzishere 2y ago
That is positively shocking. Police who are already widely known to target minorities for criminal offenses also target them for minor traffic violations.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vharuck 2y ago
  This analysis doesn't say whether minority drivers were more likely to be pulled over for traffic violations, only that they were more likely to be issued a citation and that those citations came with higher fines. I would guess a cop rarely knows the race of a speeding driver before pulling them over. The discrimination would happen either when deciding whether to issue a citation, or after looking up the driver's info on the police car. When the police look up your info, do they see past citations? If so, it's a self-reinforcing cycle: people more likely to receive citations are more likely to have citations listed, and a cop who sees past citations might be less willing to let the driver off with a warning.
djoldman 2y ago
> ...rideshare data from Lyft in the state of Florida to compare minority drivers with their white counterparts. Lyft objectively measured drivers’ locations, driving speed, and location speed limits .... White and minority drivers showed no discernible differences in speeding behaviors or traffic violations. However, when both drove at identical speeds, police were still 33% more likely to issue speeding citations to minority drivers and charged 34% more expensive fines, unequivocally revealing bias. Amazing to have access to that data. So many questions... What's the variation in ticketing with respect to different police departments? How about geographic location?
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  What's the variation in ticketing with respect to different police departments? How about geographic location? Teasing out that data is actually a more fruitful exercise. I don't mean to sound callous at all when I say this, but having a study that says "In the US blacks are discriminated against" is a bit lacking in new data or understanding. Any intellectually honest observer already knows they face discrimination.
  - stevenAthompson 2y ago
    > Any intellectually honest observer already knows they face discrimination. Yep, but a significant percentage of the population are not honest observers. This is pretty hard to refute even for those that would normally attempt to hand wave the data away. This time those folks will have to get more creative.
xnx 2y ago
> our findings suggest that compared with enforcement by police officers, appropriately located automated technologies, such as speeding cameras, could help reduce selective enforcement of traffic violations. Every stoplight should be a speeding, red-light running, and missing tags enforcement camera.
- haliskerbas 2y ago
  Shall we chuck in facial recognition too, just in case you half-inched a pack of gum at the Tesco self-checkout?
  - kypro 2y ago
    Tesco self-checkout already has facial recognition connected to other local stores (including those of other major supermarkets), so this probably isn't needed. If you were stupid enough to steal a pack of gum (some of my family are) you'll quickly find iyou're unable to buy groceries from any store in your area [1]. [1] https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/blog/the-spectator-has-your-local-shop-blacklisted-you/ https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/blog/the-spectator-has-your-l...
- chrislongss 2y ago
  You forgot tracking. Tracking and recording every trip you take.
  - xnx 2y ago
    Everyone's phones already collect and sell this information. If it's useful, and the citizens vote for it, why shouldn't cities collect this data? It already happens on toll roads
    - chrislongss 2y ago
      Maybe we should strive to make it illegal for companies to collect and sell phone data instead of allowing more mass data collection?
pclowes 2y ago
I very well believe this could be true. However, after hearing of many studies that don’t get published unless they confirm the suspicion of racial prejudice I don’t even know what to believe anymore. Side effect of a post-truth society locked in endless red-blue proxy fights I guess. I don’t know why we need police doing traffic enforcement. The cars know how fast they are going, the cars know where they are, the cars know what the speed limit is, why are they able to speed? Enforcement should be fully automated and violations should be forced to provide evidence of a special situation id they do speed eg: in labor etc. or a ticket is automatically issued. Also in favor of governors on max acceleration and relative force generation for large heavy vehicles. Eg: 9k lb electric truck can do 0-60 in a minimum of 8seconds.
- viraptor 2y ago
  > I don’t even know what to believe anymore Good research? Even if studies which did not find this problem were not published, if the methodology is correct this study is correct regardless of external pressures. > The cars know how fast they are going They don't. My car's displayed speed is 5% higher than actual speed. It will change a little bit again after the next tire replacement. > the cars know where they are They don't. Not only are there no up to date maps for permanent roads, roadworks will add changes and in downtown gps will happily put you on the road on the other side of a high-rise. > the cars know what the speed limit is Again, up to date global, correct, precise maps do not exist and will not exist. Vision can't be relied on either, because bad luck can make a speed limit invisible.
  - pclowes 2y ago
    You don't believe there has been widespread failures if not malpractice and outright fraud in many journals and published studies resulting in replication crises and performative/self-serving peer review over the last several years? Also cars can read speed limit signs pretty accurately. GPS is pretty accurate. It should not be possible to go highway speeds in areas that are purely residential and miles away from the highway. Also we could make a more accurate map enforcement system. Not trivial but straightforward.
kube-system 2y ago
Not surprising, however, something I'm curious about is how much of the effect is due to first order bias directly due to racial prejudice -- and how much of it is second order biases and miscommunications due to the inherent social tensions of a minority traffic stop in the US. For sure, I am immediately privileged by my color when I am stopped by the police, but the social ease by which we communicate and interact during the stop also intuitively plays a role in whether I'll get off with a warning or not. Although I guess it's probably a distinction without much of a practical difference.
- balderdash 2y ago
  Putting race aside for a moment - I completely agree, my experience (though not a huge sample set) is that most officers get to your car expecting confrontation, and when they don’t get it end up just issuing a warning / writing a less severe ticket. Given that it’s easy to get out of a ticket afterwards, why argue it on the side of the road?
  - javman 2y ago
    Can you clarify how it is easy to get out of a ticket afterwards? In my experience from sitting in a traffic court a couple times (in Washington state), the only people who get out of a ticket are those who have squeaky clean driving records for 10+ years, and those who have lawyers. But most people can't afford lawyers for traffic violations.
    - dullcrisp 2y ago
      It’s possible that you answered your own question.
    - balderdash 2y ago
      I’ve usually just hired a lawyer, but went once myself, I’ve never paid more for the lawyer than I would have paid for the ticket so it’s usually been a 0%-50% discount to the ticket. But the real cost a speeding ticket is the 5%-30% increase in your insurance which could be hundreds of dollars a year ANNUALLY so it always just seemed cheaper short and long term to pay someone to deal with it (mind you I’m talking a grand total of four speeding tickets)
readthenotes1 2y ago
Given the different rate of death-by-cop, I'd be surprised if the "Asian" contribution to the citation effect wasn't actually negative. https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...
g8oz 2y ago
This seems like the kind of research that would invite retaliation from the current American administration. I hope none of the authors are visa holders.
- gtsop 2y ago
  I wonder why the downvotes. I assume people believe this comment is overly sarcastic... but is it? The absurdity of what the administration is doing automatically makes this comment a legitimate one, and not a troll.
ReptileMan 2y ago
> Our main analysis assigns drivers to one of two racial and ethnic categories: white or minority, where minority includes Asian and Pacific Islander, Black, or Hispanic (31). Whenever you see this kind of aggregation you can be certain that you there will lies, damned lies and statistics. Let me guess - if the authors did by 5 groups the results they got were not saying something they liked. Or at least they should have put any kind of proof that the rate of ticketing for all of those aggregated groups were quite similar.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Let me guess - if the authors did by 5 groups the results they got were not saying something they liked. The main reason likely is that US race (treating Hispanic ethnicity as a race trumping nominal racial categories, so the other categories all are implicitly prefixed by “non-Hispanic”) is something like (in 5 categories): 59% White, 19% Hispanic, 13% Black, 6% Asian, 3% Other/Mixed. Or, in two categories: 59% White alone, 41% Other The two-group breakout takes far less data to get equal statistical utility for its smallest group when compared to the 5 group breakout (that's true even if you don't really care about the Other/Mixed catch-all group in the 5-group breakdown, but only the other four.)
dragonwriter 2y ago
> our findings suggest that compared with enforcement by police officers, appropriately located automated technologies, such as speeding cameras, could help reduce selective enforcement of traffic violations This seems to presume that automated enforcement replaces, rather than enabling departments to even more precisely focus, the selective human enforcement of traffic laws. Given the role of selective traffic enforcement as a conscious tool in generating contacts to look for non-traffic issues, rather than a product of mere implicit bias, I find it extremely unlikely that this would happen with any real-world police department.
sunflowerfly 2y ago
A black friend of mine gets stopped constantly. He is highly educated (well beyond a bachelors degree) in a stem field. He dresses professionally. He drives cautiously and does not speed. He once joked he does not feel as bad getting stopped at night because it is less likely racial profiling.

75 points by marojejian 2y ago

That is positively shocking. Police who are already widely known to target minorities for criminal offenses also target them for minor traffic violations.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
vharuck 2y ago
This analysis doesn't say whether minority drivers were more likely to be pulled over for traffic violations, only that they were more likely to be issued a citation and that those citations came with higher fines. I would guess a cop rarely knows the race of a speeding driver before pulling them over. The discrimination would happen either when deciding whether to issue a citation, or after looking up the driver's info on the police car. When the police look up your info, do they see past citations? If so, it's a self-reinforcing cycle: people more likely to receive citations are more likely to have citations listed, and a cop who sees past citations might be less willing to let the driver off with a warning.

djoldman 2y ago

> ...rideshare data from Lyft in the state of Florida to compare minority drivers with their white counterparts. Lyft objectively measured drivers’ locations, driving speed, and location speed limits .... White and minority drivers showed no discernible differences in speeding behaviors or traffic violations. However, when both drove at identical speeds, police were still 33% more likely to issue speeding citations to minority drivers and charged 34% more expensive fines, unequivocally revealing bias. Amazing to have access to that data. So many questions... What's the variation in ticketing with respect to different police departments? How about geographic location?

bilbo0s 2y ago
What's the variation in ticketing with respect to different police departments? How about geographic location? Teasing out that data is actually a more fruitful exercise. I don't mean to sound callous at all when I say this, but having a study that says "In the US blacks are discriminated against" is a bit lacking in new data or understanding. Any intellectually honest observer already knows they face discrimination.
- stevenAthompson 2y ago
  > Any intellectually honest observer already knows they face discrimination. Yep, but a significant percentage of the population are not honest observers. This is pretty hard to refute even for those that would normally attempt to hand wave the data away. This time those folks will have to get more creative.

xnx 2y ago

haliskerbas 2y ago
Shall we chuck in facial recognition too, just in case you half-inched a pack of gum at the Tesco self-checkout?
- kypro 2y ago
  Tesco self-checkout already has facial recognition connected to other local stores (including those of other major supermarkets), so this probably isn't needed. If you were stupid enough to steal a pack of gum (some of my family are) you'll quickly find iyou're unable to buy groceries from any store in your area [1]. [1] https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/blog/the-spectator-has-your-local-shop-blacklisted-you/ https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/blog/the-spectator-has-your-l...
chrislongss 2y ago
You forgot tracking. Tracking and recording every trip you take.
- xnx 2y ago
  Everyone's phones already collect and sell this information. If it's useful, and the citizens vote for it, why shouldn't cities collect this data? It already happens on toll roads
  - chrislongss 2y ago
    Maybe we should strive to make it illegal for companies to collect and sell phone data instead of allowing more mass data collection?

pclowes 2y ago

I very well believe this could be true. However, after hearing of many studies that don’t get published unless they confirm the suspicion of racial prejudice I don’t even know what to believe anymore. Side effect of a post-truth society locked in endless red-blue proxy fights I guess. I don’t know why we need police doing traffic enforcement. The cars know how fast they are going, the cars know where they are, the cars know what the speed limit is, why are they able to speed? Enforcement should be fully automated and violations should be forced to provide evidence of a special situation id they do speed eg: in labor etc. or a ticket is automatically issued. Also in favor of governors on max acceleration and relative force generation for large heavy vehicles. Eg: 9k lb electric truck can do 0-60 in a minimum of 8seconds.

viraptor 2y ago
> I don’t even know what to believe anymore Good research? Even if studies which did not find this problem were not published, if the methodology is correct this study is correct regardless of external pressures. > The cars know how fast they are going They don't. My car's displayed speed is 5% higher than actual speed. It will change a little bit again after the next tire replacement. > the cars know where they are They don't. Not only are there no up to date maps for permanent roads, roadworks will add changes and in downtown gps will happily put you on the road on the other side of a high-rise. > the cars know what the speed limit is Again, up to date global, correct, precise maps do not exist and will not exist. Vision can't be relied on either, because bad luck can make a speed limit invisible.
- pclowes 2y ago
  You don't believe there has been widespread failures if not malpractice and outright fraud in many journals and published studies resulting in replication crises and performative/self-serving peer review over the last several years? Also cars can read speed limit signs pretty accurately. GPS is pretty accurate. It should not be possible to go highway speeds in areas that are purely residential and miles away from the highway. Also we could make a more accurate map enforcement system. Not trivial but straightforward.

kube-system 2y ago

Not surprising, however, something I'm curious about is how much of the effect is due to first order bias directly due to racial prejudice -- and how much of it is second order biases and miscommunications due to the inherent social tensions of a minority traffic stop in the US. For sure, I am immediately privileged by my color when I am stopped by the police, but the social ease by which we communicate and interact during the stop also intuitively plays a role in whether I'll get off with a warning or not. Although I guess it's probably a distinction without much of a practical difference.

balderdash 2y ago
Putting race aside for a moment - I completely agree, my experience (though not a huge sample set) is that most officers get to your car expecting confrontation, and when they don’t get it end up just issuing a warning / writing a less severe ticket. Given that it’s easy to get out of a ticket afterwards, why argue it on the side of the road?
- javman 2y ago
  Can you clarify how it is easy to get out of a ticket afterwards? In my experience from sitting in a traffic court a couple times (in Washington state), the only people who get out of a ticket are those who have squeaky clean driving records for 10+ years, and those who have lawyers. But most people can't afford lawyers for traffic violations.
  - dullcrisp 2y ago
    It’s possible that you answered your own question.
  - balderdash 2y ago
    I’ve usually just hired a lawyer, but went once myself, I’ve never paid more for the lawyer than I would have paid for the ticket so it’s usually been a 0%-50% discount to the ticket. But the real cost a speeding ticket is the 5%-30% increase in your insurance which could be hundreds of dollars a year ANNUALLY so it always just seemed cheaper short and long term to pay someone to deal with it (mind you I’m talking a grand total of four speeding tickets)

readthenotes1 2y ago

Given the different rate of death-by-cop, I'd be surprised if the "Asian" contribution to the citation effect wasn't actually negative. https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

g8oz 2y ago

This seems like the kind of research that would invite retaliation from the current American administration. I hope none of the authors are visa holders.

gtsop 2y ago
I wonder why the downvotes. I assume people believe this comment is overly sarcastic... but is it? The absurdity of what the administration is doing automatically makes this comment a legitimate one, and not a troll.

ReptileMan 2y ago

> Our main analysis assigns drivers to one of two racial and ethnic categories: white or minority, where minority includes Asian and Pacific Islander, Black, or Hispanic (31). Whenever you see this kind of aggregation you can be certain that you there will lies, damned lies and statistics. Let me guess - if the authors did by 5 groups the results they got were not saying something they liked. Or at least they should have put any kind of proof that the rate of ticketing for all of those aggregated groups were quite similar.

dragonwriter 2y ago
> Let me guess - if the authors did by 5 groups the results they got were not saying something they liked. The main reason likely is that US race (treating Hispanic ethnicity as a race trumping nominal racial categories, so the other categories all are implicitly prefixed by “non-Hispanic”) is something like (in 5 categories): 59% White, 19% Hispanic, 13% Black, 6% Asian, 3% Other/Mixed. Or, in two categories: 59% White alone, 41% Other The two-group breakout takes far less data to get equal statistical utility for its smallest group when compared to the 5 group breakout (that's true even if you don't really care about the Other/Mixed catch-all group in the 5-group breakdown, but only the other four.)

dragonwriter 2y ago

> our findings suggest that compared with enforcement by police officers, appropriately located automated technologies, such as speeding cameras, could help reduce selective enforcement of traffic violations This seems to presume that automated enforcement replaces, rather than enabling departments to even more precisely focus, the selective human enforcement of traffic laws. Given the role of selective traffic enforcement as a conscious tool in generating contacts to look for non-traffic issues, rather than a product of mere implicit bias, I find it extremely unlikely that this would happen with any real-world police department.

sunflowerfly 2y ago

A black friend of mine gets stopped constantly. He is highly educated (well beyond a bachelors degree) in a stem field. He dresses professionally. He drives cautiously and does not speed. He once joked he does not feel as bad getting stopped at night because it is less likely racial profiling.