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For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. Personally I hope Tom will bring new moderation po

by kccqzy 2y ago

For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. Personally I hope Tom will bring new moderation policies that will truly let unpopular opinions thrive, but I don't have high hopes here since this is just an announcement of a new moderator, not an announcement of new moderation policies.

otterley 2y ago
"Not thriv[ing]" is not the same as being quashed. Minority opinions don't always rise to the popularity or acceptance level of majority opinions, and that's OK.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  Let us not use the word "thrive" or "quash" to avoid misunderstandings. To rephrase, I hope that on HN even minority opinions have reasonable rebuttals. Unfortunately what currently happens is people flag minority opinions with no discussion.
  - otterley 2y ago
    I agree that that's not a best practice. It's not what the downvote mechanism was intended for.
    - tracker1 2y ago
      In a way, iirc, it really is. It's as much a "I disagree" as it is "I don't like this". That said, I would like to see more people actually respond in addition to a downvote. I don't think that's generally a function of the moderators though.
    - MrMcCall 2y ago
      Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad. That's why I have only flagged one or two posts, ever, but not because I was mad, but because the comment was just plain beyond the pale. And my posts against portaying violent rape in film got flagged. Make it make sense, because I understand the failure of this system because systems are my trade-in-craft.
      - jraph 2y ago
        Nope, sometimes I would have a rebuttal but flagging is the better option (constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect, and/or don't feed the troll). Or, the comment doesn't even have anything to refute, it's just disrespectful or it's spam, or both. I have flagged a few comments but I'm rarely mad. And if one is mad because of a disrespectful comment, the flagging is probably appropriate too.
        MrMcCall 2y ago
        > constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect Yes, indeed.
      - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        > Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad This is cope, just like "I'm being downvoted for speaking the truth!". Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them". I suggest you try to steelman the idea of flagging and see that maybe there could be other things at play.
        MrMcCall 2y ago
        > Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them". Precisely. That's the biggest problem with closed-minded fools.
        AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        I don't understand your point, sorry. Or maybe you misunderstand (on purpose?). I'm saying you attribute those downvotes incorrectly. It's maybe natural to do so as an instinct -- "those people are against me!" -- but on HN it's expected to be a bit more introspective. It's incorrect to say that "people downvote because I'm right" or "people downvote because they have nothing to say".
        MrMcCall 2y ago
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    "flag" and "downvote" are two different tools with two different purposes. "downvote" seems more appropriate for for "this is not interesting and should be less prominent". "flag" seems more appropriate for "this should not be here at all". By way of an example, on a political story, if you say something merely unpopular, you'll get downvotes and replies; if you say something hateful, you'll (usually) get flagged.
    - kccqzy 2y ago
      I agree with you, but that's not what happens for polarizing topics that are technical in nature and not political. People on HN seem to flag comments rather than downvote them.
hackyhacky 2y ago
> For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. There is a difference between expressing unpopular opinions (e.g. "manifest V3 is good"), which receive an appropriate level of considered disagreement; and expressing opinions that are removed administratively. In my experience, the former is quite common, while the latter only occurs in cases of hateful or off-topic comments. That is as it should be. No one is obligated to agree with you, and that fact should not dissuade you from expressing yourself.
JoshTriplett 2y ago
> For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. That's not a moderation issue. You can post that opinion, and people will disagree with it, post responses to it, and downvote it. It will not be flagged out of existence, unless it's also violating site policy in other ways.
- nailer 2y ago
  A polite well worded post that disagrees with the mainstream will indeed still exist, but it will be moderated to unreadably transparent and hidden by default. It’s not a great experience. Meanwhile personal attacks and hyperbole regarding Elon Musk and Trump have become very common on HN.
  - layer8 2y ago
    Downvoting and flagging is not moderation.
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      Flagging does seem to primarily be a tool for moderation. But for comments, at least, I've mostly not observed flagging being used to hide things that shouldn't be; if anything, I think flagging is underused on comments. (It's still regularly abused on stories as a downvote, perhaps in part because stories don't have downvotes. HN sometimes "rescues" stories that get over-flagged, but it's still a problem.)
      - layer8 2y ago
        Flagging isn’t done by moderators, it’s done by regular HN users.
        JoshTriplett 2y ago
        I didn't say it was done by moderators, I said it was a tool for moderation. Flagging is the means by which regular HN users perform moderation activities, in addition to the actions available to the moderators.
buttercraft 2y ago
> having the opinion What I see a lot of is this: User posts "$opinion $generalization $snark $dismissal $adhominem". User gets down voted or flagged. User complains that downvotes are for expressing $opinion and that $opinion is not allowed on this site! But we can all see the other things in their post that probably brought on most of the downvotes.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  I agree. "It's not what you said, it's how you said it.". Most stuff I downvote is because of the way it's expressed, not because of the opinion itself.
maccard 2y ago
I’m a fairly steadfast holder of the “I like apples walled garden, it’s my choice to be there” argument, and I think as a dissenting opinion on this forum I get a lot of flak for it. But that’s not a moderation problem, it’s the fact that my opinion is different and I have 10x the number of people disagreeing with me than agreeing with me.
- stuartjohnson12 2y ago
  Upvoted, but your opinion is wrong and I didn't want to leave without telling you I hate your opinion.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by kccqzy 2y ago

otterley 2y ago

"Not thriv[ing]" is not the same as being quashed. Minority opinions don't always rise to the popularity or acceptance level of majority opinions, and that's OK.

kccqzy 2y ago
Let us not use the word "thrive" or "quash" to avoid misunderstandings. To rephrase, I hope that on HN even minority opinions have reasonable rebuttals. Unfortunately what currently happens is people flag minority opinions with no discussion.
- otterley 2y ago
  I agree that that's not a best practice. It's not what the downvote mechanism was intended for.
  - tracker1 2y ago
    In a way, iirc, it really is. It's as much a "I disagree" as it is "I don't like this". That said, I would like to see more people actually respond in addition to a downvote. I don't think that's generally a function of the moderators though.
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad. That's why I have only flagged one or two posts, ever, but not because I was mad, but because the comment was just plain beyond the pale. And my posts against portaying violent rape in film got flagged. Make it make sense, because I understand the failure of this system because systems are my trade-in-craft.
    - jraph 2y ago
      Nope, sometimes I would have a rebuttal but flagging is the better option (constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect, and/or don't feed the troll). Or, the comment doesn't even have anything to refute, it's just disrespectful or it's spam, or both. I have flagged a few comments but I'm rarely mad. And if one is mad because of a disrespectful comment, the flagging is probably appropriate too.
      - MrMcCall 2y ago
        > constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect Yes, indeed.
    - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
      > Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad This is cope, just like "I'm being downvoted for speaking the truth!". Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them". I suggest you try to steelman the idea of flagging and see that maybe there could be other things at play.
      - MrMcCall 2y ago
        > Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them". Precisely. That's the biggest problem with closed-minded fools.
        AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        I don't understand your point, sorry. Or maybe you misunderstand (on purpose?). I'm saying you attribute those downvotes incorrectly. It's maybe natural to do so as an instinct -- "those people are against me!" -- but on HN it's expected to be a bit more introspective. It's incorrect to say that "people downvote because I'm right" or "people downvote because they have nothing to say".
        MrMcCall 2y ago
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  "flag" and "downvote" are two different tools with two different purposes. "downvote" seems more appropriate for for "this is not interesting and should be less prominent". "flag" seems more appropriate for "this should not be here at all". By way of an example, on a political story, if you say something merely unpopular, you'll get downvotes and replies; if you say something hateful, you'll (usually) get flagged.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    I agree with you, but that's not what happens for polarizing topics that are technical in nature and not political. People on HN seem to flag comments rather than downvote them.

hackyhacky 2y ago

> For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. There is a difference between expressing unpopular opinions (e.g. "manifest V3 is good"), which receive an appropriate level of considered disagreement; and expressing opinions that are removed administratively. In my experience, the former is quite common, while the latter only occurs in cases of hateful or off-topic comments. That is as it should be. No one is obligated to agree with you, and that fact should not dissuade you from expressing yourself.

JoshTriplett 2y ago

> For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN. That's not a moderation issue. You can post that opinion, and people will disagree with it, post responses to it, and downvote it. It will not be flagged out of existence, unless it's also violating site policy in other ways.

nailer 2y ago
A polite well worded post that disagrees with the mainstream will indeed still exist, but it will be moderated to unreadably transparent and hidden by default. It’s not a great experience. Meanwhile personal attacks and hyperbole regarding Elon Musk and Trump have become very common on HN.
- layer8 2y ago
  Downvoting and flagging is not moderation.
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    Flagging does seem to primarily be a tool for moderation. But for comments, at least, I've mostly not observed flagging being used to hide things that shouldn't be; if anything, I think flagging is underused on comments. (It's still regularly abused on stories as a downvote, perhaps in part because stories don't have downvotes. HN sometimes "rescues" stories that get over-flagged, but it's still a problem.)
    - layer8 2y ago
      Flagging isn’t done by moderators, it’s done by regular HN users.
      - JoshTriplett 2y ago
        I didn't say it was done by moderators, I said it was a tool for moderation. Flagging is the means by which regular HN users perform moderation activities, in addition to the actions available to the moderators.

buttercraft 2y ago

> having the opinion What I see a lot of is this: User posts "$opinion $generalization $snark $dismissal $adhominem". User gets down voted or flagged. User complains that downvotes are for expressing $opinion and that $opinion is not allowed on this site! But we can all see the other things in their post that probably brought on most of the downvotes.

ziddoap 2y ago
I agree. "It's not what you said, it's how you said it.". Most stuff I downvote is because of the way it's expressed, not because of the opinion itself.

maccard 2y ago

I’m a fairly steadfast holder of the “I like apples walled garden, it’s my choice to be there” argument, and I think as a dissenting opinion on this forum I get a lot of flak for it. But that’s not a moderation problem, it’s the fact that my opinion is different and I have 10x the number of people disagreeing with me than agreeing with me.

stuartjohnson12 2y ago
Upvoted, but your opinion is wrong and I didn't want to leave without telling you I hate your opinion.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]