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Interesting article. It seems every war post-Cold War has turned into some kind of proxy war. No matter how much US politicians who are isolationist try to spin
by light_triad 2y ago
Interesting article. It seems every war post-Cold War has turned into some kind of proxy war. No matter how much US politicians who are isolationist try to spin the Ukraine war as a "territorial dispute" and how well it plays with their domestic base, the US has been intimately involved since the start.
Perhaps the Cold War never really ended and there's been a secret conflict in the background ever since?
- jgilias 2y agoYes, the Cold War never ended. And it seems like Russia is winning now.
- dragonwriter 2y agoThe Cold War ended with the fall of the Soviet Union, and a new Cold War with Russia started during the late 1990s, around the time of the NATO-Yugoslavia war.
- mistrial9 2y agonobody wins in war
- blitzar 2y agoIn war, there are no winners, only widows.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- s1artibartfast 2y agoThat doesn't match up with history or reality. Hard to argue that nobody benefits from war, and that there are winners and losers.
- light_triad 2y agoThe Russians had some successes in asymmetric warfare, but they can't 'win' outright on the ground, and peace would probably decimate their economy. From the WSJ a few days ago: For Russia’s Economy, Peace Poses a Threat https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-war-economy-ukraine-peace-deal-783b8bdb https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-war-economy-ukraine-...
- s1artibartfast 2y agoUkraine was literally part of the USSR at the start of the cold war, and a satellite state following the breakup. It seems like this is a low point for Russia - a protracted hot war on what was previously its own turf.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> It seems like this is a low point for Russia - a protracted hot war on what was previously its own turf. That kind of “low point” is most of the history of the independent Russian Federation, given the first (1994-1996) and second (1999-2009) Chechen wars and the North Caucasus insurgency (2009-2017).
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI dont disagree. The cold war has not gone well for the USSR and Russia. Thats why I think it is absurd to say it is winning.
- philistine 2y agoThere is this idea that the breakup of Russia and Ukraine was bloodless in 1991, but that a military response was inevitable from the petulant displeased Russian state. We managed to delay the fight, but it was kind of inevitable.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI don't think that is true at all, especially if the "we" is the west. This strikes me as some sort of savior complex. How has NATO delayed bloodshed in Ukraine between 1991 and 2022?
- philistine 2y agoAt first, Ukraine stayed firmly rooted in Russia's economical orbit. It's the slow inevitable lean towards Western Europe that enraged Russia. NATO had nothing to do with it. It's economical.
- rdtsc 2y agoOne of the surprising thing here is how much the European and American media managed to convince Ukrainians that they are 100% on their side. Let's play a realpolitik change of perspective, and assume that both the Europeans and the Americans wanted to weaken and grind down Russia's military and economy for some years to come in a strategic move without putting any "boots on the ground", well not their own boots at least, but using Ukrainian "boots". Well, I posit they would use Ukraine in the exact shape they did it over the last 4 years or so. Nothing more or less. I believe Biden admin expected a repeat of 2014, quick and easy take-over and Zelensky gets to run away on an offered ride. But he didn't, that was surprising but the Americans didn't hesitate and decided to use that "bravery" for their goals as well. Sure, they may have also saved Ukraine but I don't think their actions since indicate they really cared about Ukraine per se, that was a secondary propaganda spin, they just saw a chance for a nice proxy war with Russia and they got it.
- artem2471 2y agoHow do you know who convinced Ukrainians about anything? That Ukrainians at any point were convinced about that?
- riehwvfbk 2y agoRemember how Putin saying that Russia was fighting the USA and not Ukraine was supposed to be an example of either him going insane or puffing up the conflict for his domestic audience? Well, for whatever reason now the western media are allowed to tell the truth. Now, why would that be - that's still a mystery.
- mindslight 2y agoIt's no mystery. The US regime changed to one sympathetic to Russia (at the very least), so the ever-supplicating political establishment has started realigning. Remember this is the same paper that helped drum up support for the Iraq War. Even "leftist" corpo media is still just blue-flavored state media. As far as the truth, the problem is the lack of two functioning political parties. Two parties representing different approaches to the US's interests would have meant that the opposition poking holes in the official narratives would point to a competing US-benefiting alternative. Imagine instead of this feckless trickle of weapons effectively keeping the Ukrainians on a leash, the US could have taken the lesson from the Moskva and let Ukraine run with it. That is the debate we should have had.
- riehwvfbk 2y agoRun with it and do what? Defeat a nation with five times the population? And remember, far from everyone in Ukraine is eager to serve the new masters. The men from the "occupied" territories? They are on the front lines fighting, and not on the US side. American media have started to cover "busification". They may be able to talk about this angle soon.
- mindslight 2y ago[flagged]
- riehwvfbk 2y ago[flagged]
- blueyes 2y agoWe're in a Cold War with hot proxies. The original Cold War was also like that. Now, China, Iran and North Korea are backing Russia without engaging in direct confrontation in Ukraine; the EU, NATO, and maybe still the US are backing Ukraine. If Trump realigns with Putin against Ukraine, then the axis of authoritarian countries will have won a major battle. Trump will ofc lose many of his old-guard GOP supporters if he does that.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> Now, China, Iran and North Korea are backing Russia without engaging in direct confrontation in Ukraine; Not true of North Korea, which is engaging in direct confrontation in Ukraine.
- jopsen 2y ago> Trump will ofc lose many of his old-guard GOP supporters if he does that. Are there any left? Trump has undermined the alliance system. That damage can't be easily undone.