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Sports supplement creatine makes no difference to muscle gains, trial finds
- chank 2y agoOver the years through my own involvement in sports and physically demaning jobs with trying a lot of different supplementation, I've come to the conclusion that most (if not all) supplements provide little to no value beyond a good diet. If they do, they're either illigal as non-perscription and/or require regular physician monitoring use correctly.
- arresin 2y agoI don’t want to be rude but your anecdote (and all anecdotes like this on anything to do with health) is uninteresting and useless.
- hnuser123456 2y agoI support their anecdote. Any "supplements" that have significant effects are highly regulated and somewhat risky. Worrying about things that will make a 1-2% difference isn't worth the time, just workout one more rep.
- Johanx64 2y ago> Just one more rep It don't work like that. The amount you can work out (at intensity) is limited by your recovery time. Thus you take that "supplement" and can do one more rep, or go to gym extra time a week, especially if it comes to "regulated and risky" supplements, then you can do many, many more reps.
- chank 2y agoThe point is, supplements will mostly only help you shore up deficiencies in your diet and generally won't do it as effectively as eating right. No matter how much supplementation you do, you can't out-run a bad diet.
- Johanx64 2y agoUnironically, I trust anecdotes more than any random nutrition study. The more I personally know the person, or the more connectedness I have, the more his anecdote is worth listening to. This study is a collection of mere 54 random anecdotes (!), random people of the street. Anecdote of a random min-maxing turbo nerd on hackernews >= 54 random people from the street.
- chank 2y agoI don't want to be rude, but your off-topic anecdote about my uninteresting and useless anecdote is also... uninteresting and useless.
- iamacyborg 2y agoThere are plenty of well researched performance enhancers which are legal, for example beta-alanine for middle distance runners.
- econ 2y ago36 raw eggs per day seems the funny example here
- iamacyborg 2y agoCan’t say I’m familiar with that one
- econ 2y agohttps://www.gigasnutrition.com/en/blogs/ernaehrung/vince-girondas-36-eier-pro-tag-diat-ist-sie-wirklich-so-gut-wie-steroide https://www.gigasnutrition.com/en/blogs/ernaehrung/vince-gir...
- chank 2y agoThe meaningfull context here was "good diet". If middle distance runners ate for middle distance running would they need to take beta alanine? E.g. ate more organ meat which contains high levels of beta alanine.
- iamacyborg 2y agoHow much organ meat do you think would be needed daily to have an optimal dosage of beta alanine? What side effects are associated with eating large quantities of organs meats regularly? Sometimes supplements are just the better option.
- chank 2y agoHonestly, likely not that much. From what I've found you can get recommended dosage and more from just eating the right foods. Right meaning foods rich in what you're looking for. Now in context that may be hard for some people or they just don't like those foods. So supplementing makes sense.
- tekla 2y agoEvery second thinking about what supplements you should take is probably better spent in the gym.
- the__alchemist 2y agoThis sort of study is important, given how highly taken creatine is. I will highlight a part that I think may be especially relevant: > “The people taking the creatine supplement saw changes before they even started exercising, which leads us to believe that it wasn’t actual real muscle growth, but potentially fluid retention,” Dr Hagstrom said. I think this is well-known, right? People take creatine specifically because it increases water retention in muscles, making them look slightly bigger. I'm not sure if many people think it will help build muscles and strength directly in the way "TRT" does, but maybe I'm wrong! My understanding of the conventional wisdom: - Caffeine and other uppers work from a motivational perspective during workouts - "TRT" provides massive gains, and nasty side effects - Creatine makes your muscles look slightly bigger - Nothing else works
- LostMyLogin 2y agoYes, it's well-known. It's also the reason people take it.
- Retric 2y agoIt also helps with short term energy so maximum performance over a 30-90 second window increases, which fits many sports. It’s less useful for endurance athletes or 1 rep max. “By taking a creatine supplement, such as creatine monohydrate, you can change the amount of phosphocreatine and creatine in your muscles. The extra creatine can help your muscles make more ATP faster as you use it to fuel your cells during high-intensity exercise. One reason your body builds more lean muscle tissue when you take creatine is that your muscles will hold more water. The pressure from the water in your cells causes your muscles to swell. This water and swelling can also make cells grow.” https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/creatine https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/creatine On average it also improves cognitive function slightly etc, but like most supplements individual results vary. “especially as you get older. But studies have not shown a strong effect.”
- notesinthefield 2y agoCurious to see support for the TRT statement - I myself have been on test cyp and anastrazole for the better part of two years with not one side effect. Been in and around steroid users in the strength sport realm for 15. The people with "nasty" side effects are almost always abusers that blast/cruise too often with no AI or PCT e.g dumbasses. Its been a life changing experience for me (going from low 200 ng/dl free T to 800-900 at 32)
- laszlojamf 2y agoThe way I understood it creatine by itself doesn't promote muscle gain all that much. It's the fact that you can potentially do one to three more reps which does. But that still means you have to do the reps. https://leangains.com/supplements-you-might-actually-find-useful/ https://leangains.com/supplements-you-might-actually-find-us...
- xiande04 2y agoExactly. As ATP is broken down to adenosine and phosphate to produce energy, creatine re-phosphorolates adenosine. So it gives you more energy at molecular level. But as you said, you have to actually use that energy.
- Frost1x 2y agoAnd not even just use that energy, use that in a way that promotes hypertrophy. There’s lots of ways that energy could be used that doesn’t ultimately get you any muscle growth. For example, you could be using it in athletics, running, etc and it’s not inherently going to give you growth. The effects have been known to be small. You get a little extra energy that might push you a little further in a set going to failure or with one or two reps in reserve. Maybe you slide in some lengthened partial that you go a bit more through the range of motion that you would have had energy to do otherwise. And that happens again and again over the course of years and you get a tiny bit extra from it, probably. I’m not sure this study design disproves that at all.
- cratermoon 2y agoThis is correct. There are two main biological activities involving creatine, a combination of amino acids: 1. it facilitates recycling of ADP back to ATP, obviously more ATP means more energy, meaning ability to do more reps 2. it acts as a pH buffer, countering the fatigue effects of lactic acid buildup. So no, taking creatine without doing the work probably won't make a difference (except to your wallet), but use in conjunction with consistent and effective exercise, the effect is real. One thing though: don't bother with the creatine loading phase, it's a marketing scheme to sell more product.
- LostMyLogin 2y agoI've been lifting five to six days a week since 2012, with some de-loading periods between, and have had my nutrition and sleep locked in for the majority of that time. Anecdotal of course, but I will still sit here and say that creatine is the only supplement that has actually worked over all those years - in fact, it's the only one I currently take. I recover so much better when on roughly 5mg of Creatine for an extended period of time versus when I am not taking any. I also very clearly notice added water weight. That recovery leads to better training sessions which in turn leads to increased muscle and strength. The difference in water retention and recovery is measurable whether doing a PPL or something like Tactical Barbell blocks.. call me crazy. EDIT: 5g not 5mg
- world2vec 2y agoTotally agree with your personal experience. I'm able to do a few more reps and recover a bit faster between sets and from one session to the next. That will definitely have a positive impact on muscle mass in the medium/long term.
- dmbche 2y agoI know nothing about this, but in the article they mention that their trial was for 5g a day, but I see you mention 5mg - was that a typo? It's interesting either way - not meant as a jab.
- WXLCKNO 2y agoDefinitely a typo
- LostMyLogin 2y agoSorry, yes - typo! I take ~5g.
- d0mine 2y agoThe dose is 5g, not 5mg
- LostMyLogin 2y ago
- skadamat 2y agoI've had the pleasure of working with a personal trainer who has a broad educational training background. She emphasized that creatine "kind of helped" but it was really only that last mile 5% benefit. And the effect would mostly be long-term (1-2 years of dedicated training). She just told me to focus on trying to get 1 gram of high quality protein daily for pound of body weight. This study is just one study, but to me just highlights her same observation even more.
- itsoktocry 2y ago>She just told me to focus on trying to get 1 gram of high quality protein daily for pound of body weight. You hear this a lot, but it is incredibly difficult to eat eg 175g of protein every day. That's 4 chicken breasts, every day.
- elbows 2y agoI don't think it's that difficult if you're training a lot and eating accordingly. For someone eating 3000 calories a day, that's less than 25% of calories from protein, which is pretty reasonable. It's harder if you're not eating a lot overall, but still doable with some planning and the occasional protein shake.
- kjkjadksj 2y agoThats basically how all my lifting friends eat. In college it was chicken breast and white rice and franks red hot sauce to make that otherwise unseasoned food palatable every dinner and lunch. Copious protein shakes. You can imagine the farts from my roommates during bulking…
- DontchaKnowit 2y agoIts really not that hard. I mean sure it takes some planning and avoiding excess fat=carbs but lots of the following will get you there easily - - eggs - beans - yogurt - beef - chicken - some kinds of cheese
- rd11235 2y agoI don’t understand the trend of individual studies making it to the top of HN, while metaanalyses are ignored, despite examining 10s or 100s of such individual studies in aggregate to reduce noise. There are we-are-human reasons, but are there any logical reasons?
- fuckyah 2y ago[dead]
- damnitbuilds 2y agoThank you for reminding people of this.
- NotGMan 2y agoBecause if studies are trash the meta-result is also trash. This is what is happening in all nutrition science, where most studies are trash. That is why you can prove any hypothesis you want by picking (meta) studies in nutrition science.
- Fredkin 2y agoIt's like the CDO of science.
- epistasis 2y agoIf by "logical" you mean "practical" then the reason is that the study which cost a lot of money to do, the constituent studies that generate data, are more likely to get a press release, and that is how non-specialists learn about new studies. Logically, from the perspective of the university, being able to point out the result of spending a lot of money to contribute to human knowledge is important, so they publicize these expensive studies. The metaanalysis is cheap, and takes a few people's time for doing the analysis, no new expensive data involved.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- adrian_b 2y agoI do not understand why would anyone believe that creatine can influence muscle gains. Muscle gains require an adequate protein intake, but creatine has no relationship with that. Creatine, as phosphocreatine, provides energy storage for short-time anaerobic effort. After the available phosphocreatine is exhausted, only a lower power can be sustained, at the level that can be supported by the conversion of glucose into lactic acid. For even longer times, the power that can be sustained must drop to the level supported by aerobic metabolism. It is known that the daily capacity of creatine synthesis in humans is usually limited to less than the optimal requirement for intense exercise, so some creatine must be provided by food, for the best results. I take a little creatine, because I eat vegan food, which does not contain creatine. For someone who eats meat, it is very unlikely that a creatine supplement can be useful, because meat should contain enough additional creatine, besides the creatine that is synthesized internally. However, I am grateful to the sport fans who may have taken creatine without any good reasons, because that has ensured the widespread availability at modest prices of creatine supplements, which are useful for vegans like myself. I agree with another poster, who says that while creatine cannot have a direct effect on muscle gains, it can have an indirect effect on someone who trains regularly, by allowing more exercise repetitions, which may stimulate muscle gains. Obviously, such an indirect effect is conditioned by actually training regularly and really doing more intense trainings than when not taking the supplement.
- bluedino 2y ago> I do not understand why would anyone believe that creatine can influence muscle gains. This is the entire fitness/supplement industry.
- econ 2y agoThe effect is dramatically different for different people. I have something around 30-60% more endurance with creatine which is insane. From what little I understand it helps move fluids though muscles. I can't imagine muscle growth doesn't benefit from that specially in seemingly poorly hydrated dry muscles like mine.
- adrian_b 2y ago
- waynenilsen 2y ago> Apparently healthy individuals (18 to 50 years), with a body mass index of ≤30 kg/m2 and *not meeting current physical activity guidelines* of at least 150 min of moderate-intensity exercise were included. I'm curious what the same study would say about athletes of various disciplines. It makes sense to me that creatine does not make a difference for these folks.
- econ 2y agoIf they don't train, difference in what are they even on about?
- smileysteve 2y agoIf (as in this study) the athletes stuck to their same level of resistance training (ie weight + reps) I would expect the study to hold with the exception of finely measured muscle teardown. As other commenters have posted, the popular suggested use of creatine use it to either increase resistance (extra reps at a greater weight) or decrease downtime (lack of atp / lactic acid buildup that breaks down muscles)
- reedf1 2y agoParticipants were instructed to maintain their current dietary habits and physical activity levels for the duration of the study. My understanding is that creatine increases the amount of available energy for muscles to use (hence increases sports performance, training performance, and recovery) - not increase muscle growth alone. That said - it is an interesting study which helps decompose the effect, this shows that creatine likely provides no other additional benefits.
- lawlessone 2y agoI've found it gives me a lot more mental energy too. Like I can think better with creatine.
- jonwachob91 2y ago>>> more mental energy too Is that the creatine, or the caffeine added to virtually ALL creatine supplements?
- the__alchemist 2y agoI will context virtually all. I have never had this come up. I suppose it depends on what products you're looking at, but buying pure creatine is easy.
- thatsnotmepls 2y agohttps://www.amazon.ca/s?k=creatine&crid=BTIA1WJE0EL&sprefix=creatin%2Caps%2C96&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=creatine&crid=BTIA1WJE0EL&sprefix=... I pretty much don't see any creatine supplements with caffeine.
- mrmuagi 2y agoCreatine does tend to get added to pre-workouts chocked full with caffeine, but stimulant free pre-workouts exist and you can always buy it in bulk seperately either in pill or powdered form.
- dcdevito 2y ago[dead]
- yza 2y agoTitle is slightly misleading. Turns out, sex-disaggregated analysis showed that the supplement group, only in females, gained 0.59 ± 1.61 kg more lean body mass than the controls (p = 0.04) Direct link to this study: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/17/6/1081 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/17/6/1081
- julianeon 2y agoThat's an important clarification! So for half the population, creatine works.
- TomHenderson3 2y agoSo you know, they are misunderstanding the paper.
- TomHenderson3 2y ago"There were no group differences in lean body mass growth following resistance training in females (p = 0.10) or males (p = 0.35)"
- achillesheels 2y agoThis isn’t a good study. First, aren’t researchers passed treating all muscle randomly? Don’t genetics play a role, particularly with adenosine triphosphate synthesizing? And second, shouldn’t creatine have results for those working out 5+ times a week? I’d like to see a study of one ethnic group weight training 7 days a week for 12 weeks and one half taking the supplement and the other not.
- epistasis 2y ago> A UNSW-led clinical trial that put 54 people through a 12-week resistance training program found no difference between those who took the supplement at the recommended dose and those who did not, Small studies like this are usually combined with others in order to get a better picture. Given the huge variety of ways to run a resistance training program, a single protocol study is unlikely to explore the space very well. So lots of small studies trying things different ways is going to be a more effective exploration of the space (in addition to matching the amount of funding that any researcher is able to get). Unfortunately lots of little studies does not make for good press releases, nor does it fit the news media cycle very well.
- vegancap 2y agoThat's one slightly gross drink less for the gym then
- tekla 2y agoThis has been known for quite a while? Even /fit/ makes fun of people who claim that creatine makes you bigger faster.
- kkzz99 2y agoNo? There are a lot of studies showing positive benefits: >The primary benefit of creatine is an improvement in strength and power output during resistance exercise. Creatine is well-researched for this purpose, and its effects are quite notable for a supplement, both in the general population,[6][7][8][9] and specifically in older adults.[10][11][12] When used in conjunction with resistance exercise, creatine may modestly increase lean mass.[7][12][11][13] In trained athletes, creatine has been reported to reduce body fat and improve some measures of anaerobic exercise performance, strength, and power output. https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/?show_conditions=true https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/?show_conditions=tr... And as a general rule of thumb: Don't take anything from 4chan seriously.
- tekla 2y agoAnd yet the OP study claims otherwise. Also hell, your own damn link says that elite athletes seem to get no benefit from creatine vs younger ones, meaning that its not really increasing muscle mass, just a combination of placebo, water retention, and maybe a burst of energy in the early stages of getting fit.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago> And yet the OP study claims otherwise. Why is this one study more believable than the others? > Also hell, your own damn link says that elite athletes seem to get no benefit from creatine vs younger ones, Where are you seeing that? All I could find was the opposite: > In trained athletes, creatine has been reported to reduce body fat and improve some measures of anaerobic exercise performance, strength, and power output. But regardless, > meaning that its not really increasing muscle mass, just a combination of placebo, water retention, and maybe a burst of energy in the early stages of getting fit. doesn't follow; it's perfectly plausible that something could help more in initial training but actually work then.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aoeusnth1 2y agoOne more N=54 trial makes absolutely no difference to the mountain of evidence in favor of creatine. The news article should reference meta studies, not chasing headlines from the drip drip drip of meaningless small studies
- TomHenderson3 2y agoIt actually does if the other studies failed to control for the gains just during the loading period, which is what the study is claiming may be happening.
- markkat 2y agoThose error bars suggest this was underpowered, and it did find a significant increase in females: https://www.mdpi.com/nutrients/nutrients-17-01081/article_deploy/html/images/nutrients-17-01081-g005.png https://www.mdpi.com/nutrients/nutrients-17-01081/article_de... Poor interpretation of the study.
- TomHenderson3 2y agoYou are misinterpreting the study. They are interested in the change in lean body mass wash-in to post RT because that is the lean body mass that can be attributed to more than just the initial increase from simply taking creatine. The increase in females that you cite is including that initial increase, which is not interesting.
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoPeople who know better shouldn't publish misleading and damaging headlines like this.
- seydor 2y agoI read the comments and now i m going to start it
- aubanel 2y agoAs a total noob in this domain, general evidence of increased sleep and muscle recovery with creating points me towards taking some, just to be more efficient at work: any counterarguments ?
- deadbabe 2y agoThere are cognitive benefits to creatine, so don’t stop taking it. Especially if you’re old as fuck (50+, etc)
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoOr if you're vegetarian. I didn't even know about the cognitive benefits until I felt them so strongly that I did a search to see if it was a common thing people experienced.
- deadbabe 2y agoWhat did you do experience?
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoMuch greater mental clarity and concentration. At the time I had a lot of brainfog, and while creatine didn't fix it, it was the difference between seeing two feet in front of me vs. 10 feet in front of me. Other effects too, like better recall, but stuff like that's hard to untangle from those first two.
- unionjack22 2y agoThis adds nothing to the conversation but seeing the lively discussion here on hn about lifting, exercise, and studies is quite rewarding. Good to see technical folks passionate about their health and fitness.
- sebastiennight 2y agoThis reminds me of watching the original infomercials for P90X and Insanity and thinking that their testimonials seemed to include a disproportionate number of tech geeks... Maybe we're the real prime market for this after all
- andrewmcwatters 2y agoI tried creatine. Taking it in powder form mixed with my protein shake made me feel awful. Not worth it. Seemingly does nothing.
- beezle 2y agoDon't take it on an empty stomach. Don't do the overload the first 10 days, instead stick to just 5g daily. It will take a little longer to get the full effect of the loading stage but with far less risk of stomach upset.
- y-c-o-m-b 2y agoI have more issues with it when there's food in my stomach vs when there's not. In fact if I eat anything within 15 minutes (in either direction) of consuming creatine, I will for certain have diarrhea. I have zero issues with it on an empty stomach. These days I just make sure not to eat anything within an hour of the creatine and I'm good. Agreed on the loading phase. It's not worth it. EDIT: should add that I've been taking creatine for several years
- meltyness 2y ago> Participants completed a 3-day food log for the 3 days prior to each assessment (baseline, post seven-day wash-in phase, and post 12-week RT intervention) to provide an estimate of their typical total kilocalorie (kcal/day) and macronutrient (g/day of carbohydrate, fat, and protein) intake That's a lot of extrapolation, Marmite-flavored protein powder, no doubt? > that comprising 3 full-body sessions a week for 12 weeks (Supplementary Materials, Table S1) [Table S1 describes 3 different bro-splits, comprised of 45 different assistance exercises and no planned progression in intensity, excepting "To failure"] Ah yes, I see they've confused resistance exercise with resistance training, indeed a mistake. Granted, it does seem like a fine time to avoid "fitness powders" in light of "The Rhisotope Project" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40819617
- reverendsteveii 2y agoI'm just here to remind everyone that the results of a single trial can fall anywhere on the bell curve. Below I've linked a meta-analysis of 10 studies that shows evidence for "a very small effect favoring creatine supplementation when combined with RT[resistance training] compared to RT and a placebo". https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10180745/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10180745/
- cjbenedikt 2y agoEffects of Creatine Supplementation and Resistance Training on Muscle Strength Gains in Adults <50 Years of Age: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/21/3665#:~:text=In%20the%20present%20meta%2Danalysis,benefit%20for%20lower%2Dbody%20strength. https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/21/3665#:~:text=In%20the%2... and Creatine Supplementation for Muscle Growth: A Scoping Review of Randomized Clinical Trials from 2012 to 2021 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8949037/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8949037/
- seadan83 2y agoJunk science. Some people get enough creatine already in their diets. Some people respond to creatine, others do not. Creatine response is also a function of age. The cohorts should have had their creatine levels measured, broken up by age, and perhaps be done on non-beginners. Compare this study vs this: https://www.cptips.com/creatine.htm https://www.cptips.com/creatine.htm, cites multiple studies and later concluded that most likely older vegetarians are likely to see a benefit, everyone else maybe will see a benefit or nothing at all. Given that, without knowing creatine levels of the participants, I find it no surprise the study found no significant results. I do not think this study actually even measured creatine impact.
- amai 2y agoCreatine makes me quite a bit slower in 5k runs. I believe the effect of creatine is the same as the effect of training with a weight vest, because it simply makes you heavier.
- thecatvoid 2y agoBullshit. It's like saying protein powder doesn't increase muscle on Ronnie Coleman or Arnold or anyone who is at their protein limit. Some people have high creatine by themselves from meat sources or from own body, or some already have muscles saturated with it. Creatine slightly boosts pure lean muscle growth. But most importantly it saturated muscle with creatine and increases its mass, ofcourse the increase isn't muscle tissue but water and resources bond to it. People usually count sarcoplasmic hypertrophy from glycogen as "muscle gains" even when they are short term and goes away after low carbs or depletion. Also as with anything when you stop doing it, it will go away. Also muscles are mostly water (75-80%), Mike Menzter also said that which reminded me. Who will benefit from creatine? The ones who has it low. How can it help? Allows to push harder, allows to store more fluid and hydrate cells internally, may trigger MPS more often/recovers better. It is like, "by itself" creatine don't go and build muscle, but it boosts whatever mechanism if they weren't already. Some reality checks, don't expect signifiant size, don't expect significant contractile muscle size increase, expect water weight and boosted performance, but that is if only your muscles weren't actually saturated with creatine. Ps: not sure about the boosted MPS signalling.
- googlehater 2y agoAs with all nutrition """science""", studies should only be used to generate ideas for your own routine, not provide any conclusions. Try it and see if it works for you. If it does - great! If it doesn't - great!
- tjbiddle 2y agoCreatine is quite literally the most researched supplement in the world. It's safe, effective, and recommended by both gym rats and doctors in any field. It's naturally occurring in many foods. It's the only supplement that's actually given insanely effective results for my own anecdotal use. Any study that says otherwise I'm just going to assume is complete BS. Normally I'd give something a chance and read their evidence, but this is practically up there with someone trying to argue the world is flat for me.