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So, building a bridge is an engineering endeavor. Does this mean that drawing blueprints for the bridge is not engineering? What about working a crane? Laying

So, building a bridge is an engineering endeavor. Does this mean that drawing blueprints for the bridge is not engineering? What about working a crane? Laying brick? Sealing pavement? Sweeping the bridge? Could you say that an AWS datacenter is not a feat of engineering? Certainly writing the software that powers it is as important as any other discipline, and every piece of its execution has definable metrics to measure performance. I've known janitors who sell accounts and measure their foot steps to find the fastest cleaning path. If you sell janitorial services for $2000 a month and it only takes you 2 hours a night to do a job, then you'll make as much money as some engineers. Not that salary is the measure of an engineer, but using math and science to maximize favorable outcomes should be. Or maybe thats just the measure of a hacker.

thomseddon 14y ago
Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are working towards, I don't follow your pedantic breakdowns of various endeavors. "Drawing" the blueprints would be done by a draftsman not necessarily an engineer, working a crane is a skilled job done by crane operators (again not necessarily engineers), and brick laying/pavement sealing/bridge sweeping is again not necessarily done by an engineer. In building a bridge, the "engineering" is done by the civil engineer who designs the bridge, chooses and calculates its construction: "applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems." Similarly, a datacenter may be considered a feat of engineering, but the construction (read: design) of the datacentre is done by civil/structural engineers and is separate from this argument (although this may not have been what you were getting at, my interpretation was that you were initially including the building in your point). I would argue that if a janitor was to optimise his/her route by counting steps, this is not a technical problem and so doesn't make him an engineer.
- erichocean 14y ago
  I would argue that if a janitor was to optimise his/her route by counting steps, this is not a technical problem and so doesn't make him an engineer. Doing so is called "industrial engineering".
barik 14y ago
"Does this mean that drawing blueprints for the bridge is not engineering? What about working a crane? Laying brick? Sealing pavement? Sweeping the bridge?" Yes. None of these items, strictly speaking, qualify as Engineering work for purposes of licensing. If you are applying for an Engineering license, you will need to subtract these hours from your Engineering experience, and if a large portion of your day-to-day work consists of these tasks, then it may take you significantly longer to obtain your license. It took me six years rather than the usual four to get my license as a result. Lunch doesn't count. Facebook doesn't count. Filling out expense reports doesn't count. Re-filling the paper in the printer doesn't count. Soldering doesn't count. There are a large amount of necessary non-Engineering distractions in any career, and none of these count.
- lvh 14y ago
  Defining engineering in terms of what a legal definition somewhere undefined (I'm assuming you're talking about the US) seems unnecessarily narrow.
  - barik 14y ago
    Then do you believe that the tasks outlined above are in fact Engineering. If so, why do you think so? And what is your definition of what would constitute Engineering versus non-Engineering efforts? It's true, my definition is US-based (maybe even based on a single state), and even more narrowly, it's based on US PE licensing requirements, which isn't even necessary for many Engineering fields these days. But at least I'm not dodging the question, here. As an example, drafting is billed at a different rate than Engineering precisely because drawing in CAD itself is generally not considered Engineering.

thomseddon 14y ago

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are working towards, I don't follow your pedantic breakdowns of various endeavors. "Drawing" the blueprints would be done by a draftsman not necessarily an engineer, working a crane is a skilled job done by crane operators (again not necessarily engineers), and brick laying/pavement sealing/bridge sweeping is again not necessarily done by an engineer. In building a bridge, the "engineering" is done by the civil engineer who designs the bridge, chooses and calculates its construction: "applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems." Similarly, a datacenter may be considered a feat of engineering, but the construction (read: design) of the datacentre is done by civil/structural engineers and is separate from this argument (although this may not have been what you were getting at, my interpretation was that you were initially including the building in your point). I would argue that if a janitor was to optimise his/her route by counting steps, this is not a technical problem and so doesn't make him an engineer.

erichocean 14y ago
I would argue that if a janitor was to optimise his/her route by counting steps, this is not a technical problem and so doesn't make him an engineer. Doing so is called "industrial engineering".

barik 14y ago

"Does this mean that drawing blueprints for the bridge is not engineering? What about working a crane? Laying brick? Sealing pavement? Sweeping the bridge?" Yes. None of these items, strictly speaking, qualify as Engineering work for purposes of licensing. If you are applying for an Engineering license, you will need to subtract these hours from your Engineering experience, and if a large portion of your day-to-day work consists of these tasks, then it may take you significantly longer to obtain your license. It took me six years rather than the usual four to get my license as a result. Lunch doesn't count. Facebook doesn't count. Filling out expense reports doesn't count. Re-filling the paper in the printer doesn't count. Soldering doesn't count. There are a large amount of necessary non-Engineering distractions in any career, and none of these count.

lvh 14y ago
Defining engineering in terms of what a legal definition somewhere undefined (I'm assuming you're talking about the US) seems unnecessarily narrow.
- barik 14y ago
  Then do you believe that the tasks outlined above are in fact Engineering. If so, why do you think so? And what is your definition of what would constitute Engineering versus non-Engineering efforts? It's true, my definition is US-based (maybe even based on a single state), and even more narrowly, it's based on US PE licensing requirements, which isn't even necessary for many Engineering fields these days. But at least I'm not dodging the question, here. As an example, drafting is billed at a different rate than Engineering precisely because drawing in CAD itself is generally not considered Engineering.