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Whether or not meritocracy exists, believing that it does is essential for upwards mobility. Studies suggest that having an external locus of control-believing

Whether or not meritocracy exists, believing that it does is essential for upwards mobility. Studies suggest that having an external locus of control-believing that your fate is determined by factors outside your control—is associated with lower academic achievement: https://ijlter.org/index.php/ijlter/article/viewFile/7094/pdf https://ijlter.org/index.php/ijlter/article/viewFile/7094/pd... (pp. 399-400). A remarkable statistic is that Asian Americans raised in poverty have more than double the upward mobility of white Americans raised in poverty. Asian kids raised in the bottom 20% of income have a 25% chance of growing up to be in the top 20% versus just 10% for similarly situated white kids. Folks are resistant to studying why, but I strongly suspect part of the reason is that Asian kids are generally taught that hard work produces results, and are discouraged from thinking about whether things are “fair” or not.

dooglius 2y ago
This looks like a case of erroneously inferring causation from correlation. If there is variance in the degree to which people are impeded by factors outside their control, then all that is required to observe such an association is that people be aware of such impediments. Beliefs need not have a causal role.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rawgabbit 2y ago
Anecdotally, quite a few Asian Americans I know of, came from relatively wealthy circumstances in their home country. Their parents were doctors, lawyers, etc. When they came to the US, they often started at rock bottom as their licenses and degrees didn't translate. They worked at menial jobs but quickly found a white collar job. Their children often were able to get into nationally recognized universities.
- rayiner 2y ago
  It’s far from “quick,” because as you recognize licenses and degrees don’t translate. I know a few people who worked their way back up by getting degrees in the U.S., but that takes many years. My cousin’s mom redid med school and residency, during which time my cousin grew up in a two bedroom apartment in Queens with her parents and brother. Note that the study I linked above compares the income of the household in which a child grew up to that person’s income in adulthood. So a kid whose parents “quickly found a white collar job” wouldn’t be categorized as having grown up in the bottom 20%. Also, your anecdotes are strong evidence of meritocracy! If a doctor or lawyer in old country can start out as a bellhop in the west and then work their way back up to being a doctor (like my uncle) that’s meritocracy! My mom is from a rich family back in old country, but extensive third-world landholdings don’t count for anything in America. And her master’s degree in chemistry was worth nothing in the U.S., especially given her limited English skills. So she worked in retail her whole career. At her earnings peak 15 years ago she was making $120k+ as a floor associate at a furniture store.
  - rawgabbit 2y ago
    You should be proud of your mom. She gave up everything to help her children succeed in the US.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      My mom is amazing.
yew 2y ago
Meritocracy isn't real and hard work doesn't work, but there are lots of real factors under your control. Vote in your own best interest. Get involved in politics. Favor class, gender, ethnic interests. Sharpen your social skills. That's a real internal locus of control. Shaping society is just another job, and a lot more rewarding to learn. Get out, touch grass, do real things, meet real people, help your friends, let them help you. (Confound your enemies.)
- rayiner 2y ago
  The groups that have focused on “class, gender, [and] ethnic interests” have made much less forward progress compared to groups that have eschewed political approaches. It’s a boat anchor around the neck of individuals in those groups who could otherwise succeed. It yokes individuals to the worst and most hopeless members of whatever group they belong to, dragging them down and holding them back.
  - yew 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - rayiner 2y ago
      But group solidarity and political organizing foster an external locus of control. It makes you think of your fate as being linked to that of your group rather than your individual efforts.
      - yew 2y ago
        Ah, sorry for the confusion. I'm not advocating group solidarity. ("Group" and "solidarity" are such fuzzily broad terms. But I think, not in the sense you intend. Real humans are, of course, social creatures.)

dooglius 2y ago

This looks like a case of erroneously inferring causation from correlation. If there is variance in the degree to which people are impeded by factors outside their control, then all that is required to observe such an association is that people be aware of such impediments. Beliefs need not have a causal role.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

rawgabbit 2y ago

Anecdotally, quite a few Asian Americans I know of, came from relatively wealthy circumstances in their home country. Their parents were doctors, lawyers, etc. When they came to the US, they often started at rock bottom as their licenses and degrees didn't translate. They worked at menial jobs but quickly found a white collar job. Their children often were able to get into nationally recognized universities.

rayiner 2y ago
It’s far from “quick,” because as you recognize licenses and degrees don’t translate. I know a few people who worked their way back up by getting degrees in the U.S., but that takes many years. My cousin’s mom redid med school and residency, during which time my cousin grew up in a two bedroom apartment in Queens with her parents and brother. Note that the study I linked above compares the income of the household in which a child grew up to that person’s income in adulthood. So a kid whose parents “quickly found a white collar job” wouldn’t be categorized as having grown up in the bottom 20%. Also, your anecdotes are strong evidence of meritocracy! If a doctor or lawyer in old country can start out as a bellhop in the west and then work their way back up to being a doctor (like my uncle) that’s meritocracy! My mom is from a rich family back in old country, but extensive third-world landholdings don’t count for anything in America. And her master’s degree in chemistry was worth nothing in the U.S., especially given her limited English skills. So she worked in retail her whole career. At her earnings peak 15 years ago she was making $120k+ as a floor associate at a furniture store.
- rawgabbit 2y ago
  You should be proud of your mom. She gave up everything to help her children succeed in the US.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    My mom is amazing.

yew 2y ago

Meritocracy isn't real and hard work doesn't work, but there are lots of real factors under your control. Vote in your own best interest. Get involved in politics. Favor class, gender, ethnic interests. Sharpen your social skills. That's a real internal locus of control. Shaping society is just another job, and a lot more rewarding to learn. Get out, touch grass, do real things, meet real people, help your friends, let them help you. (Confound your enemies.)

rayiner 2y ago
The groups that have focused on “class, gender, [and] ethnic interests” have made much less forward progress compared to groups that have eschewed political approaches. It’s a boat anchor around the neck of individuals in those groups who could otherwise succeed. It yokes individuals to the worst and most hopeless members of whatever group they belong to, dragging them down and holding them back.
- yew 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - rayiner 2y ago
    But group solidarity and political organizing foster an external locus of control. It makes you think of your fate as being linked to that of your group rather than your individual efforts.
    - yew 2y ago
      Ah, sorry for the confusion. I'm not advocating group solidarity. ("Group" and "solidarity" are such fuzzily broad terms. But I think, not in the sense you intend. Real humans are, of course, social creatures.)