6 ms·

yes it's a bit dodgy. the guardian operates as a sort of propaganda magazine although it tends to have fairly high quality stuff scattered in there.

jampekka 2y ago
A propaganda machine? It's an openly center-left newspaper.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  It's rarely "center-left", more clearly left-wing. Anyway, the very clear ideological orientation, even openly so, is what makes it a "propaganda magazine" of sort (like all ideologically orientated newspapers). I find it very similar to the Daily Mail on the other side of the spectrum, actually. I think the readership is more educated on average so it is more "intellectual" but overall it is the same type of highly orientated take on things. Interesting that articles from The Guardian appear so often here ;) Edit: It's saddening that this apparently cannot be said or discussed. Or is it a superiority complex because I compared it to the Daily Mail? (Oh dear, what have I done ;) )
  - chgs 2y ago
    Terms like “left” and “centre” lose all meaning internationally. It’s clear to everyone in the ripe that the democrats are on the right leaning side of “centre right”, but half of America thinks they are “far left”. A party that can’t even implement a national health service.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      I am not talking "internationally". Within the UK and European context, The Guardian is left-wing and has many very left-wing columnists. Do read the public comments on articles, and you'll see this is the readership, too (at least the "vocal" ones, perhaps). Sure overall it is not as left-wing as, say, Le Monde Diplomatique in France (someone mentioned it in another comment) but still. Overall, Wikipedia is quite accurate: "The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion, and the term "Guardian reader" is used to imply a stereotype of a person with modern progressive, left-wing or "politically correct" views." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian
      - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
        I live in the UK and this is simply not true. The Guardian is left-wing, for sure, in the sense that it is left of center. But it is not generally regarded as "very left-wing", nor are many of its columnists. Public comments on newspaper sites are a very poor judge of the newspaper's political position. Sometimes, even Daily Mail comment threads skew left!
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I am not sure what is your disagreement, then? It is left-wing, you agree. They do have very left-wing columnists, too, quite a few of them, most famous being Owen Jones.
        FabHK 2y ago
        Nobody said "very" left-wing. Nobody seems to disagree that it is left-wing.
        PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        From the GP: > The Guardian is left-wing and has many very left-wing columnists. Sure there's some subtle distinction between the paper itself being one thing but still having "many very left-wing columnists", but not a lot.
        FabHK 2y ago
        Ah, missed that. Sorry.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Is this what it has come to? Trying to twist every single word as much as possible against their author in the least honest way possible? I stand with what you quoted. This was a honest and rather matter-of-fact statement... But I obviously deserver to be shot for it by the "progressists" it has somehow managed to offend.
    - mdemare 2y ago
      > that the democrats are on the right leaning side of “centre right” This is repeated frequently, but, no, just no. Name one position by the Democrats that is to the right of typical center to center-right parties such as CDU/CSU, La République En Marche, PP, CDA, ÖVP. Immigration, abortion, environmental regulations?
      - kubb 2y ago
        Healthcare, welfare, labor rights, public services, hawkish foreign policy.
      - jampekka 2y ago
        Public healthcare, tuition-free higher education, gun regulation, unions, social security, taxation, business regulation, criminal penalties. On some/many social issues (minorities, abortion, drug policy) Democrats are relatively liberal even by European standards.
        chgs 2y ago
        Interestingly until very recently even the republicans are way to the left of European countries on immigration.
      - pyrale 2y ago
        All of these parties are equivalent to the dems. They're rightwing, not center. There's been a trend recently to call them center-right to make the distinction with far right parties which were anecdotal 50 years ago, but make no mistake, when a party is called center-right, it's a rightwing party, not a center party that could align either with the left or the right depending on the topic.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I can't comment on the others but "La Republique en Marche" in France (Macron's party) is not rightwing. It goes from centre right to the centre left. From a British perspective it pretty much covers the right of Labour, the Lib Dems, and the left of the Tories. Macron himself is very centrist to centre left. He started in government in Hollande's cabinet, which was a Socialist Party (= Labour) government. Many top figures in Macron's party now are former Socialist Party. The rightwing party in France now is effectively the RN (although it is still referred to as "far-right" for historical and tactical reasons).
    - gadders 2y ago
      Certainly on culture war issues they are far left.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    This is (deliberate) moving of the Overton window. The Guardian was e.g. heavily against Jeremy Corbyn and was actively involved in purging the left wing of Labour. Left-wing/far-left in UK is something like the Morning Star.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Don't assume bad faith when someone expresses their opinion (see rules). When even Wikipedia describes The Guardian's readership as "generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion" (as I quoted in another comment) there is nothing wrong, disingenuous, or inaccurate in saying that The Guardian is left-wing.
      - Angostura 2y ago
        When the person starts out by describing a mainstream paper as left-wing propaganda, I think its fair to be sceptical about the degree of good faith, no?
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I think it is your reply that is not in good faith at this point because either you haven't read my comments or you have chosen to ignore them. Anyway it is getting excessively tiring not to be able to discuss or say anything so have a nice day.
      - jampekka 2y ago
        You're right, I should have talked about the Overton window more generally. But public usage of terminology is part of moving/spreading the window. It's quite apparent in the US discourse when very moderate politicians like US mainstream democrats are characterized as "radical left-wing extremists". Granted, there's a lot of hyperbolical "fascists" and "nazis" thrown around from the other side. I find mainstream left of UK to be quite clearly center left. The current Labour government policy could be characterized even as center right.
      - vidarh 2y ago
  - pyrale 2y ago
    > Edit: It's saddening that this apparently cannot be said or discussed. The sad part is that you can't make the distinction between a paper being opinionated and it being propaganda. Plenty of newspapers have historically had a very strong bias but also a strong commitment to journalism ethics and standards.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      propaganda, noun: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view. Well if it is "opiniated" and has a "very strong bias" I call it propaganda. Again, they are not the only ones and I am not singling them out. I used a blunt term that seems to ruffle some feathers but it is better to be aware than to take everything we read at face value.
      - pyrale 2y ago
        There's a difference between a journalist and an information or an article. Any journalist or newspaper carries a bias when looking at information. Their ethics and process is what allows them to still publish information that is verified, relevant and to treat topics which they would personally not want to hear about. If a journalist with a strong bias doesn't check their information and write only what they would like to hear, that's propaganda. But that's not a necessary outcome of having a bias.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" None of what you mention contradicts your previous statement, and mine, that they are "opiniated" and "very biased" or that it isn't propaganda according to the dictionary definition I quoted... Perhaps the issue is that people associate propaganda with false information (which is what you imply). That is not the case.
  - vidarh 2y ago
    By European and UK standards, it's a centre-left liberal (as in classical liberalism) paper. In Europe, liberalism is firmly centrist. The Guardian was firmly far to the right of Labour under Corbyn, for example, when Labour was mildly social-democratic, and somewhat more aligned with Labour now when Labour is at its most right wing since Blair - arguably more so. Often to the great frustration of the UK left, where The Guardian is a haven of last resort due to the lack of any major left-wing UK newspapers.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      > Labour under Corbyn, for example, when Labour was mildly social-democratic Corbyn and McDonnell were hardcore socialists and Marxists so if that's what you call "mildly social-democratic" then The Guardian might be Conservative... It seems that younger people have no references and understanding of political concepts. Corbyn had full-on socialist policies in the Labour manifesto of the time but simply because he used terms like "coop" they seem to have been missed by some... Blair was centre-left. He didn't try to destroy private schools so that still makes Starmer's government more on the left.
      - jampekka 2y ago
        > It seems that younger people have no references and understanding of political concepts. Corbyn had full-on socialist policies in the Labour manifesto of the time but simply because he used terms like "coop" they seem to have been missed by some... Social democratic and labour parties are, at least were openly socialist at least until the 1990s. UK Labour party is part of the Party of European Socialists and an observing member of Socialist International. Most social democratic parties were "Bernsteinian" with the explicit goal of democratic transition into socialism. Coops have been promoted by both left and right. At least with a bit longer reference span democratic socialism is not radical or far-left in the European context.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Yes back to the socialist roots, indeed. > Coops have been promoted by both left and right. The "coop" in Corbyn's Labour manifesto were effectively "soviets" as the proposal was to nationalise companies and hand control to the workers by turning them into "coops". This was not "mildly social-democratic"...
  - regularjack 2y ago
    They appear so often here because they tend to be good articles.
  - lyu07282 2y ago
    > It's rarely "center-left", more clearly left-wing. To give you some perspective: I'm a leftist, the guardian represents the polar opposite of very fundamental beliefs all leftists share, they actively undermine and oppose what we believe in. Just because you disagree with both liberal and left-wing views doesn't make them the same. Leftists aren't allied with liberals, we despise them, sometimes we hate them even more than conservatives. Just a few examples: [1] They were smearing Corbyn constantly as antisemitic (which we leftists view as a smear-campaign by liberals to purge the labor party of it's left-wing, which they successfully did btw.), [2] they did partner with the gates foundation on global development (leftists view the foundation as neoliberal and their development of the global south as part of neocolonialism, we think those are all bad things btw.) and finally [3] they push Israeli/Zionist framing of the genocide in Gaza. [1] https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/how-the-guardian-betrayed-not-only-corbyn-but-the-last-vestiges-of-british-democracy/ https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/how-the-guardian-betrayed-not... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/gnm-press-office/guardian-launches-global-development-site https://www.theguardian.com/gnm-press-office/guardian-launch... [3] https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/03/17/guardian-israel/ https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/03/17/guardian-israel...

jampekka 2y ago

A propaganda machine? It's an openly center-left newspaper.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
It's rarely "center-left", more clearly left-wing. Anyway, the very clear ideological orientation, even openly so, is what makes it a "propaganda magazine" of sort (like all ideologically orientated newspapers). I find it very similar to the Daily Mail on the other side of the spectrum, actually. I think the readership is more educated on average so it is more "intellectual" but overall it is the same type of highly orientated take on things. Interesting that articles from The Guardian appear so often here ;) Edit: It's saddening that this apparently cannot be said or discussed. Or is it a superiority complex because I compared it to the Daily Mail? (Oh dear, what have I done ;) )
- chgs 2y ago
  Terms like “left” and “centre” lose all meaning internationally. It’s clear to everyone in the ripe that the democrats are on the right leaning side of “centre right”, but half of America thinks they are “far left”. A party that can’t even implement a national health service.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    I am not talking "internationally". Within the UK and European context, The Guardian is left-wing and has many very left-wing columnists. Do read the public comments on articles, and you'll see this is the readership, too (at least the "vocal" ones, perhaps). Sure overall it is not as left-wing as, say, Le Monde Diplomatique in France (someone mentioned it in another comment) but still. Overall, Wikipedia is quite accurate: "The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion, and the term "Guardian reader" is used to imply a stereotype of a person with modern progressive, left-wing or "politically correct" views." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian
    - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
      I live in the UK and this is simply not true. The Guardian is left-wing, for sure, in the sense that it is left of center. But it is not generally regarded as "very left-wing", nor are many of its columnists. Public comments on newspaper sites are a very poor judge of the newspaper's political position. Sometimes, even Daily Mail comment threads skew left!
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I am not sure what is your disagreement, then? It is left-wing, you agree. They do have very left-wing columnists, too, quite a few of them, most famous being Owen Jones.
      - FabHK 2y ago
        Nobody said "very" left-wing. Nobody seems to disagree that it is left-wing.
        PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        From the GP: > The Guardian is left-wing and has many very left-wing columnists. Sure there's some subtle distinction between the paper itself being one thing but still having "many very left-wing columnists", but not a lot.
        FabHK 2y ago
        Ah, missed that. Sorry.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Is this what it has come to? Trying to twist every single word as much as possible against their author in the least honest way possible? I stand with what you quoted. This was a honest and rather matter-of-fact statement... But I obviously deserver to be shot for it by the "progressists" it has somehow managed to offend.
  - mdemare 2y ago
    > that the democrats are on the right leaning side of “centre right” This is repeated frequently, but, no, just no. Name one position by the Democrats that is to the right of typical center to center-right parties such as CDU/CSU, La République En Marche, PP, CDA, ÖVP. Immigration, abortion, environmental regulations?
    - kubb 2y ago
      Healthcare, welfare, labor rights, public services, hawkish foreign policy.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      Public healthcare, tuition-free higher education, gun regulation, unions, social security, taxation, business regulation, criminal penalties. On some/many social issues (minorities, abortion, drug policy) Democrats are relatively liberal even by European standards.
      - chgs 2y ago
        Interestingly until very recently even the republicans are way to the left of European countries on immigration.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      All of these parties are equivalent to the dems. They're rightwing, not center. There's been a trend recently to call them center-right to make the distinction with far right parties which were anecdotal 50 years ago, but make no mistake, when a party is called center-right, it's a rightwing party, not a center party that could align either with the left or the right depending on the topic.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I can't comment on the others but "La Republique en Marche" in France (Macron's party) is not rightwing. It goes from centre right to the centre left. From a British perspective it pretty much covers the right of Labour, the Lib Dems, and the left of the Tories. Macron himself is very centrist to centre left. He started in government in Hollande's cabinet, which was a Socialist Party (= Labour) government. Many top figures in Macron's party now are former Socialist Party. The rightwing party in France now is effectively the RN (although it is still referred to as "far-right" for historical and tactical reasons).
  - gadders 2y ago
    Certainly on culture war issues they are far left.
- jampekka 2y ago
  This is (deliberate) moving of the Overton window. The Guardian was e.g. heavily against Jeremy Corbyn and was actively involved in purging the left wing of Labour. Left-wing/far-left in UK is something like the Morning Star.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Don't assume bad faith when someone expresses their opinion (see rules). When even Wikipedia describes The Guardian's readership as "generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion" (as I quoted in another comment) there is nothing wrong, disingenuous, or inaccurate in saying that The Guardian is left-wing.
    - Angostura 2y ago
      When the person starts out by describing a mainstream paper as left-wing propaganda, I think its fair to be sceptical about the degree of good faith, no?
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I think it is your reply that is not in good faith at this point because either you haven't read my comments or you have chosen to ignore them. Anyway it is getting excessively tiring not to be able to discuss or say anything so have a nice day.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      You're right, I should have talked about the Overton window more generally. But public usage of terminology is part of moving/spreading the window. It's quite apparent in the US discourse when very moderate politicians like US mainstream democrats are characterized as "radical left-wing extremists". Granted, there's a lot of hyperbolical "fascists" and "nazis" thrown around from the other side. I find mainstream left of UK to be quite clearly center left. The current Labour government policy could be characterized even as center right.
    - vidarh 2y ago
- pyrale 2y ago
  > Edit: It's saddening that this apparently cannot be said or discussed. The sad part is that you can't make the distinction between a paper being opinionated and it being propaganda. Plenty of newspapers have historically had a very strong bias but also a strong commitment to journalism ethics and standards.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    propaganda, noun: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view. Well if it is "opiniated" and has a "very strong bias" I call it propaganda. Again, they are not the only ones and I am not singling them out. I used a blunt term that seems to ruffle some feathers but it is better to be aware than to take everything we read at face value.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      There's a difference between a journalist and an information or an article. Any journalist or newspaper carries a bias when looking at information. Their ethics and process is what allows them to still publish information that is verified, relevant and to treat topics which they would personally not want to hear about. If a journalist with a strong bias doesn't check their information and write only what they would like to hear, that's propaganda. But that's not a necessary outcome of having a bias.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" None of what you mention contradicts your previous statement, and mine, that they are "opiniated" and "very biased" or that it isn't propaganda according to the dictionary definition I quoted... Perhaps the issue is that people associate propaganda with false information (which is what you imply). That is not the case.
- vidarh 2y ago
  By European and UK standards, it's a centre-left liberal (as in classical liberalism) paper. In Europe, liberalism is firmly centrist. The Guardian was firmly far to the right of Labour under Corbyn, for example, when Labour was mildly social-democratic, and somewhat more aligned with Labour now when Labour is at its most right wing since Blair - arguably more so. Often to the great frustration of the UK left, where The Guardian is a haven of last resort due to the lack of any major left-wing UK newspapers.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    > Labour under Corbyn, for example, when Labour was mildly social-democratic Corbyn and McDonnell were hardcore socialists and Marxists so if that's what you call "mildly social-democratic" then The Guardian might be Conservative... It seems that younger people have no references and understanding of political concepts. Corbyn had full-on socialist policies in the Labour manifesto of the time but simply because he used terms like "coop" they seem to have been missed by some... Blair was centre-left. He didn't try to destroy private schools so that still makes Starmer's government more on the left.
    - jampekka 2y ago
      > It seems that younger people have no references and understanding of political concepts. Corbyn had full-on socialist policies in the Labour manifesto of the time but simply because he used terms like "coop" they seem to have been missed by some... Social democratic and labour parties are, at least were openly socialist at least until the 1990s. UK Labour party is part of the Party of European Socialists and an observing member of Socialist International. Most social democratic parties were "Bernsteinian" with the explicit goal of democratic transition into socialism. Coops have been promoted by both left and right. At least with a bit longer reference span democratic socialism is not radical or far-left in the European context.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Yes back to the socialist roots, indeed. > Coops have been promoted by both left and right. The "coop" in Corbyn's Labour manifesto were effectively "soviets" as the proposal was to nationalise companies and hand control to the workers by turning them into "coops". This was not "mildly social-democratic"...
- regularjack 2y ago
  They appear so often here because they tend to be good articles.
- lyu07282 2y ago
  > It's rarely "center-left", more clearly left-wing. To give you some perspective: I'm a leftist, the guardian represents the polar opposite of very fundamental beliefs all leftists share, they actively undermine and oppose what we believe in. Just because you disagree with both liberal and left-wing views doesn't make them the same. Leftists aren't allied with liberals, we despise them, sometimes we hate them even more than conservatives. Just a few examples: [1] They were smearing Corbyn constantly as antisemitic (which we leftists view as a smear-campaign by liberals to purge the labor party of it's left-wing, which they successfully did btw.), [2] they did partner with the gates foundation on global development (leftists view the foundation as neoliberal and their development of the global south as part of neocolonialism, we think those are all bad things btw.) and finally [3] they push Israeli/Zionist framing of the genocide in Gaza. [1] https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/how-the-guardian-betrayed-not-only-corbyn-but-the-last-vestiges-of-british-democracy/ https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/how-the-guardian-betrayed-not... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/gnm-press-office/guardian-launches-global-development-site https://www.theguardian.com/gnm-press-office/guardian-launch... [3] https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/03/17/guardian-israel/ https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/03/17/guardian-israel...