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There are dozens of scales to learn, with roots all over the fretboard. Each useful for different things. Just the basic minor pentatonic requires five differen

There are dozens of scales to learn, with roots all over the fretboard. Each useful for different things. Just the basic minor pentatonic requires five different patterns. Eight note scales require eight different patterns, with various roots depending on the mode you want to play. The Guitar Grimoirr scale book is 200 pages!

card_zero 2y ago
Yeah, this is about modes, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)
zozbot234 2y ago
By "pattern" you mean starting the scale on a different note/step? (or, equivalently, rolling the interval arrangement and ending up with one that's seemingly "different"?) That seems like a trivial change - if you can play C-D-E-F etc. you can play D-E-F etc. Why does it have to be "learned" separately?
- d1sxeyes 2y ago
  They don’t really need to be learned differently. They do need to be practised though.
- card_zero 2y ago
  No, there are different scales. For a start, you can play a minor scale instead of a major one, or you can play a chromatic one (all the notes, a semitone at a time). Sticking to the notes of a scale when playing a melody is playing in a particular mode, for instance the pentatonic scale is a blues mode. Several modes are from ancient Greece and create strange stiff-sounding moods. I can't claim great consciousness of the mode/scale used in any familiar songs (other than the pentatonic), but this is a thing and it goes on a lot. Popular in the technical end of thrash metal. Edit: the minor scale doesn't count because C major = A minor if you start on A, fair enough, forget that one.
  - zozbot234 2y ago
    > the minor scale doesn't count because C major = A minor if you start on A, fair enough, forget that one. It might actually count since the harmonic minor exists. But this is just stressing the point that all of those "separate" scales might perhaps be best introduced as simple variations of the usual diatonic scale. Then sure, you might want to practice them a little bit, but at least you should have "learned" them in that you are not wondering what you're supposed to play.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Even though they don't all have seven notes? (Why is a seven-note scale called "diatonic" anyway, that should mean a scale of two notes, doesn't sound very exciting.)
      - moefh 2y ago
        > Why is a seven-note scale called "diatonic" anyway The prefix of "diatonic" is "dia" ("through"), not "di" ("two"), but nobody really knows what exactly its origin (διάτονος, "diátonos") was supposed to mean[1]: it's probably either something like "through the tones" or "stretched out tones". The second meaning is closer to the modern definition we have for diatonic: the 7 (out of 12) notes are selected to be as stretched out as possible in the octave, that is, each adjacent note is either 1 or 2 semitones apart, and the two 1-semitone-apart pairs are as far as possible from each other (note that the second requirement excludes e.g. the ascending melodic minor[2] from being considered diatonic, even though it has 7 notes). [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diatonic https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diatonic [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_minor_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_minor_scale
        card_zero 2y ago
        Wikt doesn't give any other word where dia- means "stretched out". It's usually "across". I guess a stretched-out thing is stretched across a space.
- dboreham 2y ago
  Allan Holdsworth enters the chat..
- avemuri 2y ago
  The patterns are different on different string sets. You don't need to learn DEF with the same pattern again, but you do need to learn all the ways of playing CDE
  - zozbot234 2y ago
    But then the pattern across strings is also "relative" and only depends on the guitar tuning you're playing. For instance in the standard tuning, two neighboring strings are always a perfect fourth apart (five frets) unless they're the G-B strings in which case they're a major third apart (four frets). So if you know where you'd be playing a note on one string, that same note is just five frets back or four frets back on the next one. Which is again a totally "relative" framing that works for any individual note the same way. You can even figure out where you'd have to play if the tuning was non-standard. These patterns only have to be practiced a little bit, there's not really any need to learn them from scratch. (If anything, I would want a "guitar learning" app to automatically come up with its own exercises, similar to ear training apps for learning to recognize intervals - and using something like a spaced repetition approach to evaluate how the user is doing.)
    - fastasucan 2y ago
      Sounds like you answered your own question: > What do you need "scales" practice for on guitar? > These patterns only have to be practiced a little bit
    - compiler-guy 2y ago
      Nearly every popular-music guitar lesson series in the world teaches the five various pentatonic patterns--the few exceptions being those that focus on classical guitar or non-western music. You might find this article interesting. https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/43516/can-someone-please-tell-me-why-there-are-5-different-patterns-to-penatonic-scale https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/43516/can-someone-... There is definitely theory to how they are constructed, and you are right that the shifts and adjustments can be derived if you think about it and practice it. But that's just a longer way to the five patterns.
- MattPalmer1086 2y ago
  No, a pattern does not refer to changing the key of the scale. A pattern is a way of playing a scale across the strings without having to move your hand. To play the same scale in the same key at a different position on the neck, the pattern of notes is different. You have to learn 5 different patterns to be able to play a single pentatonic scale anywhere on the neck. Obviously they all start at a different position if you want to use a different key - that is easy. Still 5 patterns to learn though just for that one scale.

card_zero 2y ago

Yeah, this is about modes, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

zozbot234 2y ago

By "pattern" you mean starting the scale on a different note/step? (or, equivalently, rolling the interval arrangement and ending up with one that's seemingly "different"?) That seems like a trivial change - if you can play C-D-E-F etc. you can play D-E-F etc. Why does it have to be "learned" separately?

d1sxeyes 2y ago
They don’t really need to be learned differently. They do need to be practised though.
card_zero 2y ago
No, there are different scales. For a start, you can play a minor scale instead of a major one, or you can play a chromatic one (all the notes, a semitone at a time). Sticking to the notes of a scale when playing a melody is playing in a particular mode, for instance the pentatonic scale is a blues mode. Several modes are from ancient Greece and create strange stiff-sounding moods. I can't claim great consciousness of the mode/scale used in any familiar songs (other than the pentatonic), but this is a thing and it goes on a lot. Popular in the technical end of thrash metal. Edit: the minor scale doesn't count because C major = A minor if you start on A, fair enough, forget that one.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  > the minor scale doesn't count because C major = A minor if you start on A, fair enough, forget that one. It might actually count since the harmonic minor exists. But this is just stressing the point that all of those "separate" scales might perhaps be best introduced as simple variations of the usual diatonic scale. Then sure, you might want to practice them a little bit, but at least you should have "learned" them in that you are not wondering what you're supposed to play.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Even though they don't all have seven notes? (Why is a seven-note scale called "diatonic" anyway, that should mean a scale of two notes, doesn't sound very exciting.)
    - moefh 2y ago
      > Why is a seven-note scale called "diatonic" anyway The prefix of "diatonic" is "dia" ("through"), not "di" ("two"), but nobody really knows what exactly its origin (διάτονος, "diátonos") was supposed to mean[1]: it's probably either something like "through the tones" or "stretched out tones". The second meaning is closer to the modern definition we have for diatonic: the 7 (out of 12) notes are selected to be as stretched out as possible in the octave, that is, each adjacent note is either 1 or 2 semitones apart, and the two 1-semitone-apart pairs are as far as possible from each other (note that the second requirement excludes e.g. the ascending melodic minor[2] from being considered diatonic, even though it has 7 notes). [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diatonic https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diatonic [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_minor_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_minor_scale
      - card_zero 2y ago
        Wikt doesn't give any other word where dia- means "stretched out". It's usually "across". I guess a stretched-out thing is stretched across a space.
dboreham 2y ago
Allan Holdsworth enters the chat..
avemuri 2y ago
The patterns are different on different string sets. You don't need to learn DEF with the same pattern again, but you do need to learn all the ways of playing CDE
- zozbot234 2y ago
  But then the pattern across strings is also "relative" and only depends on the guitar tuning you're playing. For instance in the standard tuning, two neighboring strings are always a perfect fourth apart (five frets) unless they're the G-B strings in which case they're a major third apart (four frets). So if you know where you'd be playing a note on one string, that same note is just five frets back or four frets back on the next one. Which is again a totally "relative" framing that works for any individual note the same way. You can even figure out where you'd have to play if the tuning was non-standard. These patterns only have to be practiced a little bit, there's not really any need to learn them from scratch. (If anything, I would want a "guitar learning" app to automatically come up with its own exercises, similar to ear training apps for learning to recognize intervals - and using something like a spaced repetition approach to evaluate how the user is doing.)
  - fastasucan 2y ago
    Sounds like you answered your own question: > What do you need "scales" practice for on guitar? > These patterns only have to be practiced a little bit
  - compiler-guy 2y ago
    Nearly every popular-music guitar lesson series in the world teaches the five various pentatonic patterns--the few exceptions being those that focus on classical guitar or non-western music. You might find this article interesting. https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/43516/can-someone-please-tell-me-why-there-are-5-different-patterns-to-penatonic-scale https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/43516/can-someone-... There is definitely theory to how they are constructed, and you are right that the shifts and adjustments can be derived if you think about it and practice it. But that's just a longer way to the five patterns.
MattPalmer1086 2y ago
No, a pattern does not refer to changing the key of the scale. A pattern is a way of playing a scale across the strings without having to move your hand. To play the same scale in the same key at a different position on the neck, the pattern of notes is different. You have to learn 5 different patterns to be able to play a single pentatonic scale anywhere on the neck. Obviously they all start at a different position if you want to use a different key - that is easy. Still 5 patterns to learn though just for that one scale.