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I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this, the fact that machines are able to recreate his style seems to go against the whimsy he creates in his art. I woul

I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this, the fact that machines are able to recreate his style seems to go against the whimsy he creates in his art. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a possible lawsuit considering how strongly that style is tied to him, and that the model surely used his films as data. If it was me I would feel horrible that what I gave to the public and dedicated my life to was contorted in this manner.

seizethecheese 2y ago
If it was me, I would feel great that my work has been extended to give joy at such a large scale. (Not that it’s invalid if he has a different opinion.)
lowq 2y ago
"An insult to life itself" [1] [1] https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/hayao-miyazaki-artificial-intelligence-animation-insult-to-life-studio-ghibli-1201757617/ https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/hayao-miyazaki-ar...
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  > After seeing a brief demo of a grotesque zombie-esque creature Reacting to an animation where a gross critter "learned to walk using AI" instead of being animated by a person 8+ years ago, and ended up using its head as a leg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc It has nothing to do with the current image generation topic beyond the "AI" label being stuck on both of them Which is not to say I expect he's thrilled about ChatGPT cloning the art style on a mass scale, but that quote that everyone keeps reposting doesn't have anything to do with it
  - lowq 2y ago
    Guilty as charged. I don't think the leap was far but there was certainly a logical leap. Thanks for pointing that out.
  - zerreh50 2y ago
    His last comment in the video "we humans are losing faith in ourselves" clearly about the overall concept and not just the particular creature though
  - gilbetron 2y ago
    If you continue the quote, he says: "I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all. I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself." He was pretty clearly talking about AI, at least to me.
    - fenomas 2y ago
      Not at all - he was talking about a CG demo he'd just seen of a wriggling 3D model, which didn't bear any technical or visual resemblance to generative AI. I mean, the quote might very well reflect his actual views about generative AI, but that's definitely not what he was talking about.
      - golly_ned 2y ago
        The purpose of that demo was to create a machine that can draw like humans can, as the creators explained. His objection was that whatever produced this had no concept of pain, and that’s what makes it grotesque. He called out that he had no objection to creating horror if that’s what the authors wanted to do. That complaint is just as applicable to current Gen AI models. He wasn’t simply reacting with his gut to a gross looking video but to the concept of a thing with no concept of pain creating and animating artwork of living things. He understood the technology was about Gen AI, as “deep learning” is written on the whiteboard. He deserves some credit.
        fenomas 2y ago
        > The purpose of that demo was to create a machine that can draw like humans can, as the creators explained Watch the video - the purpose of the demo, as the creators explained it, was to train a creature to move quickly. Since the AI model didn't simulate pain it used its head like a foot, and since the result was creepy they thought it could be used for a zombie game. That's what they presented to Miyazaki, and that's what he commented on. Then Suzuki asked where they eventually wanted to end up, and a different presenter said the thing about machines that can draw. > That complaint is just as applicable to current Gen AI models If you like, but that's not what Miyazaki applied it to.
  - ogurechny 2y ago
    It is really depressing to see how people universally don't even understand what he's talking about, and stick to non-explanations. Art is humane. It tells humans how to be humans. A thought about an ill person in pain is worthy of being told as a story. Not only that animation automation thing is of no use to someone trying to express those thoughts, its authors — just like many, many others — have no idea what humans do with their lives, and which tools artists may need to show it. They've made a toy, and were told that it's just useless wanking, together with the whole genres of pointless amusement that introduced such images into pop culture. “An insult to life itself” is not just a phrase. There is life, and there are people who deliberately ignore it, and enjoy the sights painted on cardboards.
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  The article you link to directly quotes him: "After seeing a brief demo of a grotesque zombie-esque creature, Miyazaki pauses and says that it reminds him of a friend of his with a disability so severe he can’t even high five. “Thinking of him, I can’t watch this stuff and find [it] interesting. Whoever creates this stuff has no idea what pain is whatsoever. I am utterly disgusted. If you really want to make creepy stuff, you can go ahead and do it. I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all. I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself.” He's disgusted by the creature, not the computer based technique. While he's on record as disapproving of CGI, Earwig and the Witch, directed by his son, used CGI so his disapproval isn't absolute.
  - lowq 2y ago
    "Whoever creates this stuff has no idea what pain is whatsoever." I think it's clear that he is specifically responding to the the overall soullessness of the technique - to animate without a human understanding of what is being animated. But as others have pointed out this is well before modern AI image gen and I have been corrected in that aspect.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- michaelt 2y ago
  Let's look at the context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc Presenters: "This is a presentation of an artificial intelligence model which learned certain movements [...] It's moving by using its head. It doesn't feel any pain, and has no concept of protecting its head. It uses its head like a leg. This movement is so creepy, and could be applied to zombie video games. An artificial intelligence could present us grotesque movements which we humans can't imagine." The screen shows some Silent Hill looking vaguely humanoid, crawling blob. As the presenters say, it's pretty creepy looking. Miyazaki: "I am utterly disgusted [...] I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all" IMHO saying Miyazaki outright hates AI is putting words into his mouth. All the clip shows is that a dude that doesn't make zombie horror films doesn't need a zombie horror generator thank you very much. So yeah, he clearly rejects the product pitch. But judging from Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbor Totoro I don't see why you'd pitch him that product.
  - lowq 2y ago
    "Well, we would like to build a machine that can draw pictures like humans do" "Would you?" "Yes" Awkward silence From this I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate his feelings about modern AI image gen. But you are correct in that this is not a direct assessment. Appreciate the correction, thanks.
  - conartist6 2y ago
    The relevant title would be Grave of the Fireflies, his opus about the nature of human suffering.
    - JohnBooty 2y ago
      same studio, but not Miyazaki's work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies
- ted_bunny 2y ago
  What's with the narrator's voice in that clip? Unwatchable
footlose_3815 2y ago
>I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this It's in the article
- knowknow 2y ago
  It’s not, the quote in question was from a completely different AI demo which the author mischaracterizes. the quote in context - https://youtu.be/ngZ0K3lWKRc?si=gw-_z17n_XWfqzcQ https://youtu.be/ngZ0K3lWKRc?si=gw-_z17n_XWfqzcQ
baggy_trough 2y ago
Hopefully he's wise enough to realize that it's the ultimate compliment.
- michaelt 2y ago
  Truly, every artist hopes their distinctive style will be taken by a multi-billion-dollar corporation and used by the White House to make a jeering depiction of crying deportees. It's the ultimate compliment.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    That could be the worst thing that happened, but it's exceedingly far from the only thing that happened.
    - forgotoldacc 2y ago
      Art becomes tainted by association. The USSR had some absolutely incredible art used on their propaganda posters. But if you use that for anything outside of ironic Russian themes (e.g. a goofy game set in that era, some silly snack that claims to be Russian-inspired), people will think you're an unironic communist and you instantly turn away loads of people. When a dominant political force uses AI "art" for everything they do and the style becomes apparent, anything that looks similar to that instantly disgusts loads of people. You can argue "well that's their fault for being disgusted", but pattern recognition and being conditioned to associate certain images with "bad" goes far deeper than the conscious and it's a base instinct in animals.
      - baggy_trough 2y ago
        If you think Ghibli is now tainted by association with Trump based on this image, I don't know what to tell you. That sounds preposterous in the extreme.
        doright 2y ago
jaredklewis 2y ago
Hideo? You mean Hayao right?
JohnBooty 2y ago
and that the model surely used his films as data. While I don't doubt it's true, this could be challenging to prove, because Studio Ponoc (ex-Ghibli) has produced work that uh, hews rather closely to Miyazaki's style. Were the models trained on Ghibli, Ponoc, both, something else, etc? I mean, I have no doubts. But proving it seems tough!
- leoh 2y ago
  Well they then stole from Ponoc, too, right?
- aredox 2y ago
  Ponoc is made of former Ghibli employees who founded a new home when Ghibli's future was uncertain. I am sure they are on friendly terms, if not family, with Ghibli: they worked together for years. People like them can have a gentleman's agreement. What is OpenAI in all this, if not a greedy, sloppy, soulless outsider stealing their Art and effort for financial gain without ever asking for permission?
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    I don't disagree with anything you said, but it doesn't seem to follow from what I wrote. I pointed out a reason why litigation could be difficult. I'm quite sure nothing I wrote could have been seen as defending OpenAI. Just that I felt litigation would be tricky.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I gathered the Japanese government legalized using copyrighted works to train AI last year: https://www.privacyworld.blog/2024/03/japans-new-draft-guidelines-on-ai-and-copyright-is-it-really-ok-to-train-ai-using-pirated-materials/ https://www.privacyworld.blog/2024/03/japans-new-draft-guide...
TiredOfLife 2y ago
Also hope he goes against all the artists who demanded payment for copying his style before
ogurechny 2y ago
Supposedly, you have a working internet connection. In no time, you can check the name of Hayao Miyazaki. You can see how he draws his manga, in a style which would be really hard to animate. You can see how he designs his characters. Well, maybe the colour palette can be attributed to “his style” in some works. Still, you can learn that Ghibli had famous background artists and art directors like Nizo Yamamoto and Kazuo Oga. You can compare characters drawn by Yoshifumi Kondou and Katsuya Kondou with Miyazaki's, and guess who was responsible for what in different works. You can learn how in the era when everyone waited for computers to make economical marvel of “three dee” real, Isao Takahata used computers to transfer pen and brush strokes to animation in “The Yamadas” and “Princess Mononoke”. But you don't want any of that. You want to have a familiar pop cultural label (“Miyazaki”) that produces a familiar reaction (“Oooh!”). Purely decorative, symbolic objects. Stories, ideas, hard work? Eh, don't bother me with that nonsense. There is nothing new or “cutting edge” in ignorance. And AI companies know perfectly well that they work for exactly that audience. Despite all the talk, they don't create the next genius artist, they want to be a next “enhancement filter” in TVs, something that no one uses, but everyone has to add to impress the public. That's just parasitism on lack of ability to discern.
alickz 2y ago
>I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this, the fact that machines are able to recreate his style seems to go against the whimsy he creates in his art. How much of it is _his_ style and _his_ art? How many people work on the frames and animation?

seizethecheese 2y ago

If it was me, I would feel great that my work has been extended to give joy at such a large scale. (Not that it’s invalid if he has a different opinion.)

lowq 2y ago

"An insult to life itself" [1] [1] https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/hayao-miyazaki-artificial-intelligence-animation-insult-to-life-studio-ghibli-1201757617/ https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/hayao-miyazaki-ar...

wlesieutre 2y ago
> After seeing a brief demo of a grotesque zombie-esque creature Reacting to an animation where a gross critter "learned to walk using AI" instead of being animated by a person 8+ years ago, and ended up using its head as a leg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc It has nothing to do with the current image generation topic beyond the "AI" label being stuck on both of them Which is not to say I expect he's thrilled about ChatGPT cloning the art style on a mass scale, but that quote that everyone keeps reposting doesn't have anything to do with it
- lowq 2y ago
  Guilty as charged. I don't think the leap was far but there was certainly a logical leap. Thanks for pointing that out.
- zerreh50 2y ago
  His last comment in the video "we humans are losing faith in ourselves" clearly about the overall concept and not just the particular creature though
- gilbetron 2y ago
  If you continue the quote, he says: "I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all. I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself." He was pretty clearly talking about AI, at least to me.
  - fenomas 2y ago
    Not at all - he was talking about a CG demo he'd just seen of a wriggling 3D model, which didn't bear any technical or visual resemblance to generative AI. I mean, the quote might very well reflect his actual views about generative AI, but that's definitely not what he was talking about.
    - golly_ned 2y ago
      The purpose of that demo was to create a machine that can draw like humans can, as the creators explained. His objection was that whatever produced this had no concept of pain, and that’s what makes it grotesque. He called out that he had no objection to creating horror if that’s what the authors wanted to do. That complaint is just as applicable to current Gen AI models. He wasn’t simply reacting with his gut to a gross looking video but to the concept of a thing with no concept of pain creating and animating artwork of living things. He understood the technology was about Gen AI, as “deep learning” is written on the whiteboard. He deserves some credit.
      - fenomas 2y ago
        > The purpose of that demo was to create a machine that can draw like humans can, as the creators explained Watch the video - the purpose of the demo, as the creators explained it, was to train a creature to move quickly. Since the AI model didn't simulate pain it used its head like a foot, and since the result was creepy they thought it could be used for a zombie game. That's what they presented to Miyazaki, and that's what he commented on. Then Suzuki asked where they eventually wanted to end up, and a different presenter said the thing about machines that can draw. > That complaint is just as applicable to current Gen AI models If you like, but that's not what Miyazaki applied it to.
- ogurechny 2y ago
  It is really depressing to see how people universally don't even understand what he's talking about, and stick to non-explanations. Art is humane. It tells humans how to be humans. A thought about an ill person in pain is worthy of being told as a story. Not only that animation automation thing is of no use to someone trying to express those thoughts, its authors — just like many, many others — have no idea what humans do with their lives, and which tools artists may need to show it. They've made a toy, and were told that it's just useless wanking, together with the whole genres of pointless amusement that introduced such images into pop culture. “An insult to life itself” is not just a phrase. There is life, and there are people who deliberately ignore it, and enjoy the sights painted on cardboards.
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
The article you link to directly quotes him: "After seeing a brief demo of a grotesque zombie-esque creature, Miyazaki pauses and says that it reminds him of a friend of his with a disability so severe he can’t even high five. “Thinking of him, I can’t watch this stuff and find [it] interesting. Whoever creates this stuff has no idea what pain is whatsoever. I am utterly disgusted. If you really want to make creepy stuff, you can go ahead and do it. I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all. I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself.” He's disgusted by the creature, not the computer based technique. While he's on record as disapproving of CGI, Earwig and the Witch, directed by his son, used CGI so his disapproval isn't absolute.
- lowq 2y ago
  "Whoever creates this stuff has no idea what pain is whatsoever." I think it's clear that he is specifically responding to the the overall soullessness of the technique - to animate without a human understanding of what is being animated. But as others have pointed out this is well before modern AI image gen and I have been corrected in that aspect.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
michaelt 2y ago
Let's look at the context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ0K3lWKRc Presenters: "This is a presentation of an artificial intelligence model which learned certain movements [...] It's moving by using its head. It doesn't feel any pain, and has no concept of protecting its head. It uses its head like a leg. This movement is so creepy, and could be applied to zombie video games. An artificial intelligence could present us grotesque movements which we humans can't imagine." The screen shows some Silent Hill looking vaguely humanoid, crawling blob. As the presenters say, it's pretty creepy looking. Miyazaki: "I am utterly disgusted [...] I would never wish to incorporate this technology into my work at all" IMHO saying Miyazaki outright hates AI is putting words into his mouth. All the clip shows is that a dude that doesn't make zombie horror films doesn't need a zombie horror generator thank you very much. So yeah, he clearly rejects the product pitch. But judging from Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbor Totoro I don't see why you'd pitch him that product.
- lowq 2y ago
  "Well, we would like to build a machine that can draw pictures like humans do" "Would you?" "Yes" Awkward silence From this I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate his feelings about modern AI image gen. But you are correct in that this is not a direct assessment. Appreciate the correction, thanks.
- conartist6 2y ago
  The relevant title would be Grave of the Fireflies, his opus about the nature of human suffering.
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    same studio, but not Miyazaki's work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies
ted_bunny 2y ago
What's with the narrator's voice in that clip? Unwatchable

footlose_3815 2y ago

>I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this It's in the article

knowknow 2y ago
It’s not, the quote in question was from a completely different AI demo which the author mischaracterizes. the quote in context - https://youtu.be/ngZ0K3lWKRc?si=gw-_z17n_XWfqzcQ https://youtu.be/ngZ0K3lWKRc?si=gw-_z17n_XWfqzcQ

baggy_trough 2y ago

Hopefully he's wise enough to realize that it's the ultimate compliment.

michaelt 2y ago
Truly, every artist hopes their distinctive style will be taken by a multi-billion-dollar corporation and used by the White House to make a jeering depiction of crying deportees. It's the ultimate compliment.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  That could be the worst thing that happened, but it's exceedingly far from the only thing that happened.
  - forgotoldacc 2y ago
    Art becomes tainted by association. The USSR had some absolutely incredible art used on their propaganda posters. But if you use that for anything outside of ironic Russian themes (e.g. a goofy game set in that era, some silly snack that claims to be Russian-inspired), people will think you're an unironic communist and you instantly turn away loads of people. When a dominant political force uses AI "art" for everything they do and the style becomes apparent, anything that looks similar to that instantly disgusts loads of people. You can argue "well that's their fault for being disgusted", but pattern recognition and being conditioned to associate certain images with "bad" goes far deeper than the conscious and it's a base instinct in animals.
    - baggy_trough 2y ago
      If you think Ghibli is now tainted by association with Trump based on this image, I don't know what to tell you. That sounds preposterous in the extreme.
      - doright 2y ago

jaredklewis 2y ago

Hideo? You mean Hayao right?

JohnBooty 2y ago

and that the model surely used his films as data. While I don't doubt it's true, this could be challenging to prove, because Studio Ponoc (ex-Ghibli) has produced work that uh, hews rather closely to Miyazaki's style. Were the models trained on Ghibli, Ponoc, both, something else, etc? I mean, I have no doubts. But proving it seems tough!

leoh 2y ago
Well they then stole from Ponoc, too, right?
aredox 2y ago
Ponoc is made of former Ghibli employees who founded a new home when Ghibli's future was uncertain. I am sure they are on friendly terms, if not family, with Ghibli: they worked together for years. People like them can have a gentleman's agreement. What is OpenAI in all this, if not a greedy, sloppy, soulless outsider stealing their Art and effort for financial gain without ever asking for permission?
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  I don't disagree with anything you said, but it doesn't seem to follow from what I wrote. I pointed out a reason why litigation could be difficult. I'm quite sure nothing I wrote could have been seen as defending OpenAI. Just that I felt litigation would be tricky.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I gathered the Japanese government legalized using copyrighted works to train AI last year: https://www.privacyworld.blog/2024/03/japans-new-draft-guidelines-on-ai-and-copyright-is-it-really-ok-to-train-ai-using-pirated-materials/ https://www.privacyworld.blog/2024/03/japans-new-draft-guide...

TiredOfLife 2y ago

Also hope he goes against all the artists who demanded payment for copying his style before

ogurechny 2y ago

Supposedly, you have a working internet connection. In no time, you can check the name of Hayao Miyazaki. You can see how he draws his manga, in a style which would be really hard to animate. You can see how he designs his characters. Well, maybe the colour palette can be attributed to “his style” in some works. Still, you can learn that Ghibli had famous background artists and art directors like Nizo Yamamoto and Kazuo Oga. You can compare characters drawn by Yoshifumi Kondou and Katsuya Kondou with Miyazaki's, and guess who was responsible for what in different works. You can learn how in the era when everyone waited for computers to make economical marvel of “three dee” real, Isao Takahata used computers to transfer pen and brush strokes to animation in “The Yamadas” and “Princess Mononoke”. But you don't want any of that. You want to have a familiar pop cultural label (“Miyazaki”) that produces a familiar reaction (“Oooh!”). Purely decorative, symbolic objects. Stories, ideas, hard work? Eh, don't bother me with that nonsense. There is nothing new or “cutting edge” in ignorance. And AI companies know perfectly well that they work for exactly that audience. Despite all the talk, they don't create the next genius artist, they want to be a next “enhancement filter” in TVs, something that no one uses, but everyone has to add to impress the public. That's just parasitism on lack of ability to discern.

alickz 2y ago

>I wonder how Hideo Miyazaki feels about this, the fact that machines are able to recreate his style seems to go against the whimsy he creates in his art. How much of it is _his_ style and _his_ art? How many people work on the frames and animation?