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wow. stratification to this extent makes me think that a "good" programmer, one who has had the opportunity to learn even a little from programmers in reasonab

by diN0bot 18y ago

wow. stratification to this extent makes me think that a "good" programmer, one who has had the opportunity to learn even a little from programmers in reasonably high levels, will always be able to find a job, even if it's just a crap job with good pay at a company where one has to lead the raising of the status quo. do you think this is more or less true?

smanek 18y ago
I think that seems true. I'm not particularly good (just moderately competent), and had no trouble finding work in what is ostensibly one of the worst economies in 70 years.
- aaronblohowiak 18y ago
  Ditto. Was out of work for a little under 2 weeks.
gravitycop 18y ago
always be able to find a job [...] do you think this is more or less true? Ted didn't. http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt First let us postulate that the computer scientists succeed in developing intelligent machines that can do all things better than human beings can do them. [...] As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decision for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better result than man-made ones. [...] because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. The only employment available to an increasing - as technology evolves - portion of the population, will be workfare.
- ars 18y ago
  Ted is assuming - without evidence - that machines will be able to make decisions. Today that is not true, and for the foreseeable future it's not true as well. Someone needs to program all those machines to crunch the data needed to help humans make good decisions. ...and machines become more and more intelligent... They have never done so in the past, so why do you think they'll start now? Machines became faster, but not more intelligent. Take chess as an excellent example: humans do not evaluate every possible more - somehow they just think of what the best move is. Machines can not do that, and probably will never be able to. So far they can only do what was pre-programmed for them.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    So far [machines] can only do what was pre-programmed for them. Then how do they learn, and recognize, faces? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision#Related_fields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision#Related_fields A significant part of artificial intelligence deals with autonomous planning or deliberation for systems which can perform mechanical actions such as moving a robot through some environment. This type of processing typically needs input data provided by a computer vision system, acting as a vision sensor and providing high-level information about the environment and the robot. Other parts which sometimes are described as belonging to artificial intelligence and which are used in relation to computer vision is pattern recognition and learning techniques. As a consequence, computer vision is sometimes seen as a part of the artificial intelligence field or the computer science field in general.
    - ars 18y ago
      If you program it to recognize faces, it will not, on it's own, learn to recognize cows. That's my point - it all has to be programed in advance. And if you program something that can recognize anything - just tell it if it was right or not, that program will not then learn to draw. It's the capacity to self program if you like - a human can learn anything, just tell him about the subject. A program can not.
      - gravitycop 18y ago
        If you program it to recognize faces, it will not, on it's own, learn to recognize cows. So, if you walked into a VC's office to pitch a startup, you might say with a straight face that you believe the market for cow recognition exceeds the market for human facial recognition? Do you realize that to serve the cow recognition market, we simply clip RFID tags to their ears? http://images.google.com/images?q=cow+ear+rfid+tag http://images.google.com/images?q=cow+ear+rfid+tag The artificial-machine face-recognition market is fueling the development of special intelligence in that area. There is relatively quick-return money in that area, so that is an area where intelligence is being developed first. Smell-recognition is another area where development of special intelligence can pay off relatively quickly, and therefore is providing impetus for development. So far, there are at least these relatively-fast-payoff markets for which special intelligences are being developed: 1. face recognition 2. smell recognition 3. iris recognition 4. retina recognition 5. fingerprint recognition 6. speech recognition Are you aware that the human brain contains a special sub-processor for learning and recognizing not cows, but human faces? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122150.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122150.ht... The imaging studies revealed significant face-selective activity in brain regions known to make up the distributed cortical face-processing network in humans. Further study showed distinct patches of activity in a region known as the fusiform gyrus - the primary site of face-selective activity in humans - when chimps observed faces. Do you deny that the modern human brain probably resulted from evolution by natural-selection, rather than from Intelligent Design?

by diN0bot 18y ago

smanek 18y ago

I think that seems true. I'm not particularly good (just moderately competent), and had no trouble finding work in what is ostensibly one of the worst economies in 70 years.

aaronblohowiak 18y ago
Ditto. Was out of work for a little under 2 weeks.

gravitycop 18y ago

always be able to find a job [...] do you think this is more or less true? Ted didn't. http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt First let us postulate that the computer scientists succeed in developing intelligent machines that can do all things better than human beings can do them. [...] As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decision for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better result than man-made ones. [...] because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. The only employment available to an increasing - as technology evolves - portion of the population, will be workfare.

ars 18y ago
Ted is assuming - without evidence - that machines will be able to make decisions. Today that is not true, and for the foreseeable future it's not true as well. Someone needs to program all those machines to crunch the data needed to help humans make good decisions. ...and machines become more and more intelligent... They have never done so in the past, so why do you think they'll start now? Machines became faster, but not more intelligent. Take chess as an excellent example: humans do not evaluate every possible more - somehow they just think of what the best move is. Machines can not do that, and probably will never be able to. So far they can only do what was pre-programmed for them.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  So far [machines] can only do what was pre-programmed for them. Then how do they learn, and recognize, faces? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision#Related_fields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision#Related_fields A significant part of artificial intelligence deals with autonomous planning or deliberation for systems which can perform mechanical actions such as moving a robot through some environment. This type of processing typically needs input data provided by a computer vision system, acting as a vision sensor and providing high-level information about the environment and the robot. Other parts which sometimes are described as belonging to artificial intelligence and which are used in relation to computer vision is pattern recognition and learning techniques. As a consequence, computer vision is sometimes seen as a part of the artificial intelligence field or the computer science field in general.
  - ars 18y ago
    If you program it to recognize faces, it will not, on it's own, learn to recognize cows. That's my point - it all has to be programed in advance. And if you program something that can recognize anything - just tell it if it was right or not, that program will not then learn to draw. It's the capacity to self program if you like - a human can learn anything, just tell him about the subject. A program can not.
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      If you program it to recognize faces, it will not, on it's own, learn to recognize cows. So, if you walked into a VC's office to pitch a startup, you might say with a straight face that you believe the market for cow recognition exceeds the market for human facial recognition? Do you realize that to serve the cow recognition market, we simply clip RFID tags to their ears? http://images.google.com/images?q=cow+ear+rfid+tag http://images.google.com/images?q=cow+ear+rfid+tag The artificial-machine face-recognition market is fueling the development of special intelligence in that area. There is relatively quick-return money in that area, so that is an area where intelligence is being developed first. Smell-recognition is another area where development of special intelligence can pay off relatively quickly, and therefore is providing impetus for development. So far, there are at least these relatively-fast-payoff markets for which special intelligences are being developed: 1. face recognition 2. smell recognition 3. iris recognition 4. retina recognition 5. fingerprint recognition 6. speech recognition Are you aware that the human brain contains a special sub-processor for learning and recognizing not cows, but human faces? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122150.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122150.ht... The imaging studies revealed significant face-selective activity in brain regions known to make up the distributed cortical face-processing network in humans. Further study showed distinct patches of activity in a region known as the fusiform gyrus - the primary site of face-selective activity in humans - when chimps observed faces. Do you deny that the modern human brain probably resulted from evolution by natural-selection, rather than from Intelligent Design?