4 ms·

I don't disagree with any of this, I'm just saying that we know where this goes. It's just an arms races if you let it become one. If the pitching is getting to

by scoofy 2y ago

I don't disagree with any of this, I'm just saying that we know where this goes. It's just an arms races if you let it become one. If the pitching is getting too good, make it harder to pitch. >In short, you would rather have a lower BA and a higher home run rate even if it means a higher K rate, since home runs (and 2Bs) are so significantly more valuable than singles, and fly outs are also much more valuable than ground outs (or really, less bad) due to the opportunities for sac flies and the risk of double plays. Again, I see this as the tail wagging the dog. It's easy to point to home runs as entertaining, but they a ultimately rather boring. For die hard fans, you want more hits that end up in play, with more strategy, and more opportunity for mistakes and drama. You're not going to get that from home run derbies. Again, I know it's complicated, but ultimately, most sports organizations face an extremely complicated paradigm. It's fun to follow complicated sports where anything can happen, but it's hard to follow the same sports if you're not already into them. The way you solve this is to make the sports incredibly accessible so people visit games easily and cheaply as entertainment. The American sports system doesn't allow this because there is no relegation system, and so the fan bases are too large to allow the game to be accessible to most people. You end up making decisions that make television more watchable, and by making things "important" by "breaking records." This ultimately dilutes the game because it makes breaking records less relevant over time. We've got to the point in golf where someone setting an all time PGA scoring record is basically a yawn-fest, because everyone knows they're not playing the same game.

DrFalkyn 2y ago
There’s minor leagues all over the USA. It’s pretty cheap to go to a baseball game if it’s not MLB. And even MLB if your not picky on where you sit and the game time
- scoofy 2y ago
  I used to attend round rock express games a lot. The problem is because they are a minor league team, it doesn’t matter if they are good or bad. There is no one to root for because their best players are all just sent up to the majors. It lacks generational fandom, because there is no place for hope in farm teams.
  - 1659447091 2y ago
    > It lacks generational fandom, because there is no place for hope in farm teams. Depends if you are a fan of the Major league team, imo. I enjoyed the Round Rock Express when they were a part of the Houston Astros. I still remember being really excited to see Hunter Pence in Round Rock on his way to the Majors. Lost interest in RR once it became the Texas Rangers farm team thou
  - hattmall 2y ago
    In minor leagues you root for the players. At least when I was a kid I did. I knew them, had my favorites and they were accessible. I got lots of autographs of future stars and it was incredibly exciting to see them make it to the majors. As a kid anyway, which is who I feel baseball is for, it's weird to me for adults to care about baseball.
poulsbohemian 2y ago
>The American sports system doesn't allow this because there is no relegation system A few years ago a friend of mine from the UK made the observation that American Football would benefit greatly from a relegation system... every season I have the same reaction. By about the 4th week of the season, the NFL bifurcates into legitimate contenders and everybody else. You end up with Thursday nights and late season games that nobody gives a shit about because it's gonna be a blowout. For that matter - the last 2-3 weeks of the season the playoffs are already set, so half the league has no reason to even play - and the quality of the product on the field matches this. Some kind of two-tier system would go a long way to fix this, and might also help with the larger problem of the bridge between the college and pro games. At the moment, the NFL is maybe the only league that doesn't really have a "minor league" or development league - its the colleges, and between NIL and the portal system, colleges aren't necessarily producing pro-ready players.
- riatin 2y ago
  They're never going to change this, it's the reason NFL franchises have such massively inflated valuations. Same w/ basketball + IPL franchises, very little downside risk to the earning power of the franchise.
- wileydragonfly 2y ago
  There’s 17 games… not 170. Any given Sunday.
  - poulsbohemian 2y ago
    Yes, and the league produced a better product when it was 14 and 16 games a season - week 17 is painful to watch.
- CSMastermind 2y ago
  > so half the league has no reason to even play Guys are always playing for their jobs if nothing else. There are only a few games where you can put out tape and careers are short in the NFL. So even if you're on a completely losing team there's plenty to play for.
bizzletk 2y ago
> It's easy to point to home runs as entertaining, but they a ultimately rather boring. For die hard fans, you want more hits that end up in play, with more strategy, and more opportunity for mistakes and drama. You're not going to get that from home run derbies. There's a counter-example in Cricket. The game used to be a 5-day long battle with daily skirmishes and tactical changes required according to the ebbs and flows of the weather, the players, the score each day. Sometimes you could win just by exhausting the other team, sometimes you could gain advantage by changing your play style transiently to force the other team to react. The players all wore white uniforms, national pride was wrapped up the success of the country's team and being a Good Sport was the highest ideal. Then, the powers that be created a shorter variant, the One-Day Match. The players started wearing brightly coloured uniforms, the crowds grew louder and entire categories of strategy were rendered useless as the game finished in 20% of the time. Viewership increased, cricket became "exciting" and the players sometimes achieved rockstar status usually reserved for sports that more easily captured the Australian sporting imagination like swimming and athletics. The trend was clear: the entertainment value of short-form cricket games were spectacular. In came a myriad of new sponsorship categories for things like domestic household goods ("It's Australia's Favourite Air"), energy drinks and Sports Utility Vehicles that would appeal to the demographic of viewers who only had a "day's length investment" in the game. They started playing popular music in between game pauses and the Gentlemanliness of the game's spirit gave way to Victory as the highest Ideal. Then, Cricket had it's "YouTube Shorts" moment -- an even more abridged version of the game that only lasted 20 overs per side was born. This hyper-speed version of cricket favoured fast results, flying balls and fan participation like never before. There was now fireworks and rock music and after-parties and more. It was All Killer, No Filler. The goal was to Smash It Outta The Park as much as possible, and every time they did it, a quick ad-break got to play on TV while the fans in the crowd got to sing Seven Nation Army while cheering on whoever caught the ball this time. The domestic competition is even called the "Big Bash League". Australian Cricket's archetype went from Twelve Magnificent Fellows in Baggy Green Hats to what feels like a monster truck rally with branded personalised beers, bucket hats, and brand-safe team rivalries. Sometimes they even drive a Ute truck around the stadium at half-time. What I'm trying to say is that popular demand or the voices of those who claim to interpret it say that Spectacle Isn't Boring. They love the exciting moments, and maybe are only willing to tolerate the slow and strategic sides of the game to get to the next Home Run. This trend towards shallow spectacle seems to be happening to all forms of entertainment and I suspect that baseball is not immune.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> If the pitching is getting too good, make it harder to pitch. For ball games it sounds mostly fair. There is a weird situation in cycling where any attempt at improvement (even in riding postures) getting banned by the UCI has become a meme and each year's announcement generates a fest of joke videos. That would be the other end of the spectrum we're trying to avoid.
- cjrp 2y ago
  Sort of similar in Formula 1. Team finds a loophole in rules, exploits it for performance gain, FIA bans it. Rinse and repeat.

by scoofy 2y ago

DrFalkyn 2y ago

There’s minor leagues all over the USA. It’s pretty cheap to go to a baseball game if it’s not MLB. And even MLB if your not picky on where you sit and the game time

scoofy 2y ago
I used to attend round rock express games a lot. The problem is because they are a minor league team, it doesn’t matter if they are good or bad. There is no one to root for because their best players are all just sent up to the majors. It lacks generational fandom, because there is no place for hope in farm teams.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > It lacks generational fandom, because there is no place for hope in farm teams. Depends if you are a fan of the Major league team, imo. I enjoyed the Round Rock Express when they were a part of the Houston Astros. I still remember being really excited to see Hunter Pence in Round Rock on his way to the Majors. Lost interest in RR once it became the Texas Rangers farm team thou
- hattmall 2y ago
  In minor leagues you root for the players. At least when I was a kid I did. I knew them, had my favorites and they were accessible. I got lots of autographs of future stars and it was incredibly exciting to see them make it to the majors. As a kid anyway, which is who I feel baseball is for, it's weird to me for adults to care about baseball.

poulsbohemian 2y ago

>The American sports system doesn't allow this because there is no relegation system A few years ago a friend of mine from the UK made the observation that American Football would benefit greatly from a relegation system... every season I have the same reaction. By about the 4th week of the season, the NFL bifurcates into legitimate contenders and everybody else. You end up with Thursday nights and late season games that nobody gives a shit about because it's gonna be a blowout. For that matter - the last 2-3 weeks of the season the playoffs are already set, so half the league has no reason to even play - and the quality of the product on the field matches this. Some kind of two-tier system would go a long way to fix this, and might also help with the larger problem of the bridge between the college and pro games. At the moment, the NFL is maybe the only league that doesn't really have a "minor league" or development league - its the colleges, and between NIL and the portal system, colleges aren't necessarily producing pro-ready players.

riatin 2y ago
They're never going to change this, it's the reason NFL franchises have such massively inflated valuations. Same w/ basketball + IPL franchises, very little downside risk to the earning power of the franchise.
wileydragonfly 2y ago
There’s 17 games… not 170. Any given Sunday.
- poulsbohemian 2y ago
  Yes, and the league produced a better product when it was 14 and 16 games a season - week 17 is painful to watch.
CSMastermind 2y ago
> so half the league has no reason to even play Guys are always playing for their jobs if nothing else. There are only a few games where you can put out tape and careers are short in the NFL. So even if you're on a completely losing team there's plenty to play for.

bizzletk 2y ago

> It's easy to point to home runs as entertaining, but they a ultimately rather boring. For die hard fans, you want more hits that end up in play, with more strategy, and more opportunity for mistakes and drama. You're not going to get that from home run derbies. There's a counter-example in Cricket. The game used to be a 5-day long battle with daily skirmishes and tactical changes required according to the ebbs and flows of the weather, the players, the score each day. Sometimes you could win just by exhausting the other team, sometimes you could gain advantage by changing your play style transiently to force the other team to react. The players all wore white uniforms, national pride was wrapped up the success of the country's team and being a Good Sport was the highest ideal. Then, the powers that be created a shorter variant, the One-Day Match. The players started wearing brightly coloured uniforms, the crowds grew louder and entire categories of strategy were rendered useless as the game finished in 20% of the time. Viewership increased, cricket became "exciting" and the players sometimes achieved rockstar status usually reserved for sports that more easily captured the Australian sporting imagination like swimming and athletics. The trend was clear: the entertainment value of short-form cricket games were spectacular. In came a myriad of new sponsorship categories for things like domestic household goods ("It's Australia's Favourite Air"), energy drinks and Sports Utility Vehicles that would appeal to the demographic of viewers who only had a "day's length investment" in the game. They started playing popular music in between game pauses and the Gentlemanliness of the game's spirit gave way to Victory as the highest Ideal. Then, Cricket had it's "YouTube Shorts" moment -- an even more abridged version of the game that only lasted 20 overs per side was born. This hyper-speed version of cricket favoured fast results, flying balls and fan participation like never before. There was now fireworks and rock music and after-parties and more. It was All Killer, No Filler. The goal was to Smash It Outta The Park as much as possible, and every time they did it, a quick ad-break got to play on TV while the fans in the crowd got to sing Seven Nation Army while cheering on whoever caught the ball this time. The domestic competition is even called the "Big Bash League". Australian Cricket's archetype went from Twelve Magnificent Fellows in Baggy Green Hats to what feels like a monster truck rally with branded personalised beers, bucket hats, and brand-safe team rivalries. Sometimes they even drive a Ute truck around the stadium at half-time. What I'm trying to say is that popular demand or the voices of those who claim to interpret it say that Spectacle Isn't Boring. They love the exciting moments, and maybe are only willing to tolerate the slow and strategic sides of the game to get to the next Home Run. This trend towards shallow spectacle seems to be happening to all forms of entertainment and I suspect that baseball is not immune.

makeitdouble 2y ago

> If the pitching is getting too good, make it harder to pitch. For ball games it sounds mostly fair. There is a weird situation in cycling where any attempt at improvement (even in riding postures) getting banned by the UCI has become a meme and each year's announcement generates a fest of joke videos. That would be the other end of the spectrum we're trying to avoid.

cjrp 2y ago
Sort of similar in Formula 1. Team finds a loophole in rules, exploits it for performance gain, FIA bans it. Rinse and repeat.