4 ms·

The lack of enforcement of the law is also a kind of consent. The notion that a law as written alone represents 'people's consent' is a total non-starter in any

by pvg 2y ago

The lack of enforcement of the law is also a kind of consent. The notion that a law as written alone represents 'people's consent' is a total non-starter in any kind of realistic system of governance, to build a claim of 'dishonesty' on top of that seems extra silly. You don't like the term, fine, you don't like the term. But let's not pretend that dislike is some kind of inevitable consequence compelled by Pure Logiks or whatever.

rayiner 2y ago
I don’t like it because it’s dishonest. The term “undocumented” implies that something has been agreed to or sanctioned, just not written down. But nobody agreed to allow illegal immigrants to come and stay here. As you acknowledge, the term embeds within it the premise that “the lack of enforcement of the law is also a kind of consent.” That is, illegal immigrants have America’s consent to be present in the country, because the government doesn’t try to hard to deport them. You can make that argument, but almost nobody would agree with your premise. So the term is smuggling an implicit premise that almost nobody would agree with if the premise were stated clearly (as you have done here).
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Does the court say that someone driving without a license is an 'illegal driver'? Nope, they say they are 'operating without a license' or 'driving illegally'. And guess what, that isn't because the courts are being dishonest.
- hmcq6 2y ago
  > But nobody agreed to allow illegal immigrants to come and stay here. In 90% of cases somebody did. Somebody at the border talked to them. Somebody checked their passport or their documentation (at the border). So many "undocumented immigrants" are people who overstayed their visas, like Elon did. They literally were documented but then they didn't keep up with the paperwork and thus became undocumented. "Doccumented" status *is* literally just a case of keeping up with the paperwork. Some people do sneak in but the *vast majority* come through legal ports of entry
- tptacek 2y ago
  Plenty of people agreed, especially the many, many businesses that happily employ them. Come back with this "consent of the people" stuff when we have mandatory E-Verify.
- pyuser583 2y ago
  The phrase "undocumented" is bureaucratic speak for "you can't prove it." "The allegations are undocumented." In the context of immigration, one could say "she claims to face persecution in her country of origin, but this is undocumented." That doesn't really apply to "undocumented immigrants," because it's usually not in doubt someone is an immigrant. If their place of birth is unknown, and might be in the United States, you could use the phrase "undocumented immigrant." I agree it's a propaganda phrase, and does not conform to clear English usage. But "undocumented" does not mean something is sanctioned, it means it must be proven and has not been proven.

by pvg 2y ago

rayiner 2y ago

I don’t like it because it’s dishonest. The term “undocumented” implies that something has been agreed to or sanctioned, just not written down. But nobody agreed to allow illegal immigrants to come and stay here. As you acknowledge, the term embeds within it the premise that “the lack of enforcement of the law is also a kind of consent.” That is, illegal immigrants have America’s consent to be present in the country, because the government doesn’t try to hard to deport them. You can make that argument, but almost nobody would agree with your premise. So the term is smuggling an implicit premise that almost nobody would agree with if the premise were stated clearly (as you have done here).

_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Does the court say that someone driving without a license is an 'illegal driver'? Nope, they say they are 'operating without a license' or 'driving illegally'. And guess what, that isn't because the courts are being dishonest.
hmcq6 2y ago
> But nobody agreed to allow illegal immigrants to come and stay here. In 90% of cases somebody did. Somebody at the border talked to them. Somebody checked their passport or their documentation (at the border). So many "undocumented immigrants" are people who overstayed their visas, like Elon did. They literally were documented but then they didn't keep up with the paperwork and thus became undocumented. "Doccumented" status *is* literally just a case of keeping up with the paperwork. Some people do sneak in but the *vast majority* come through legal ports of entry
tptacek 2y ago
Plenty of people agreed, especially the many, many businesses that happily employ them. Come back with this "consent of the people" stuff when we have mandatory E-Verify.
pyuser583 2y ago
The phrase "undocumented" is bureaucratic speak for "you can't prove it." "The allegations are undocumented." In the context of immigration, one could say "she claims to face persecution in her country of origin, but this is undocumented." That doesn't really apply to "undocumented immigrants," because it's usually not in doubt someone is an immigrant. If their place of birth is unknown, and might be in the United States, you could use the phrase "undocumented immigrant." I agree it's a propaganda phrase, and does not conform to clear English usage. But "undocumented" does not mean something is sanctioned, it means it must be proven and has not been proven.