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> The official position appears to be that a political party is given money by the EU but can only use it if they're pro-EU. A party that wishes the EU to be sm

> The official position appears to be that a political party is given money by the EU but can only use it if they're pro-EU. A party that wishes the EU to be smaller or for their country to exit is then considered to be engaged in "national" politics rather than "European" politics, which makes their spending the money they were given as a political party, to do politics, "embezzlement". No need for the scary quotation marks. This was plain embezzlement, as you very aptly described.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Are other parties allowed to use the funds for staffers and was it considered embezzlement in this case based on a determination of party policy? If so, this seems crazy to me.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  There have been other cases like this one yes, the EU fined UKIP for the same reason iirc. UKIP of course was a party that had only one policy: getting Britain out of the EU. Therefore any political activity by them was considered illegal under this policy. In other cases the same things have been done without fines, I think, e.g. the German Greens. Because their policies align with the Commission their campaigning in Germany isn't considered "embezzlement". The basic issue the EU has is that the Parliament isn't actually a Parliament. It's not genuinely the legislative branch because it can't change the law, which is the dictionary definition of Parliament. As a consequence it fills up with anti EU parties put there as a protest vote. These parties then want to spend their time advocating against the EU back home which is embarrassing to the EU as there is no other so-called Parliament in the world with so many members who think it shouldn't exist. These kinds of legal actions were conventionally about that. This one has gone further because it's a way for the left to continue locking down mass immigration policies. Although you will read that Le Pen is far right in reality she is a classical left wing socialist with the policies typical of such a person, she is just against the EU and its migration policies. It's a purely ideological action, hence the ankle bracelet.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > This one has gone further because it's a way for the left to continue locking down mass immigration policies. Although you will read that Le Pen is far right in reality she is a classical left wing socialist with the policies typical of such a person, she is just against the EU and its migration policies. It's a purely ideological action, hence the ankle bracelet. You are absolutely delusional. This is on the same ballpark of the argument some brain damaged people repeat that the NSDAP was leftist because it had "socialist" in the party name.
Gud 2y ago
I disagree. Why should only EU positive parties get funding? Seems highly undemocratic to me.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Because it makes no sense for an institution to use funds to help those that want to see that institution dismantled. Especially where the rhetoric for dismantling that institution already took Europe in a very dark path a century ago.
  - Gud 2y ago
    Yes, but it is bad for democracy if only one specific viewpoint, the viewpoint of the people in charge no less, is actively sponsored via taxes. Sorry, but you are representing the “a dark path”, where power is concentrated in the hands of a few.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      > Yes, but it is bad for democracy if only one specific viewpoint, the viewpoint of the people in charge no less, is actively sponsored via taxes. And that is not what is happening. You can hold quite a lot of viewpoints, including opposing who is in charge. You just can't use EU funds to campaign for EU to be effectively abolished. Imagine someone running for presidency in the US campaigning for it to disintegrate. > Sorry, but you are representing the “a dark path”, where power is concentrated in the hands of a few. Quite the opposite. EU fragments power so much that fucking Orban gets to block any initiative, even though Hungary is far from being one of the main countries in the block. Also, very cute of you to cry authoritarianism when we are talking about Le Pen of all people, someone who holds very authoritarian views herself. Quite telling, whenever such a politician faces consequences of their bullshit, a lot of people come out of the woods to make excuses for them. Fuck that noise.
      - Gud 2y ago
        And why shouldn’t you be able to use EU funds for that? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if a political organisation that is pro EU gets funding, the opponents should be funded as well. What is beneficial to the EU as a organisation shouldn’t be a parameter at all, that’s not how democracy works. I agree that Marie Le Pen holds authoritarian views. When it comes to politicians this seems to be the rule rather than an exception. But that doesn’t make EU a particularly democratic organisation. In my opinion, it is rare to find politicians who try to increase democracy. Regarding your USA example, I believe it is only a nominally democratic state. I don’t think what they do over there is particularly good and should not be wused as a positive example. I believe the best example of a functioning democracy is Switzerland.
mike_hearn 2y ago
[flagged]
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > That post was for the Americans who are waking up about now. You are just trying to excuse a plain case of embezzlement by dressing up as authoritarianism. Good that a cheater such as Le Pen is removed from elections. If democracy allows cheaters to run, that is shortcut to disaster. Were Le Pen able to win an election without embezzlement of EU funds, I would agree she is as popular as you claim. > And to the people who call themselves "European citizens", I would say this: you can build a positive, shared European identity without the EU. As someone that lives in an EU country, I fully disagree. Even the largest EU countries are relatively small for the world stage. Consider that Germany has the population of Chinese provinces. EU is an absurdly positive to every country involved, to the point where I actively desire further integration. Federalization of Europe should be the goal, not less integration. > The average rock concert does more for long term European integration than any EU regulation because the EU is not Europe and Europe is not the EU. The EU is a transient political arrangement, one that is by now actually working against true European integration. And this is the point where I come to conclusion you are arguing in bad faith. > The path it's on leads to ever harsher authoritarianism. Funny you mention this when you are crying about Le Pen and fucking AfD. Yeah, nothing authoritarian from those people. It is the EU that is truly authoritarian. Sure. Fuck that noise.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Are other parties allowed to use the funds for staffers and was it considered embezzlement in this case based on a determination of party policy? If so, this seems crazy to me.

mike_hearn 2y ago
There have been other cases like this one yes, the EU fined UKIP for the same reason iirc. UKIP of course was a party that had only one policy: getting Britain out of the EU. Therefore any political activity by them was considered illegal under this policy. In other cases the same things have been done without fines, I think, e.g. the German Greens. Because their policies align with the Commission their campaigning in Germany isn't considered "embezzlement". The basic issue the EU has is that the Parliament isn't actually a Parliament. It's not genuinely the legislative branch because it can't change the law, which is the dictionary definition of Parliament. As a consequence it fills up with anti EU parties put there as a protest vote. These parties then want to spend their time advocating against the EU back home which is embarrassing to the EU as there is no other so-called Parliament in the world with so many members who think it shouldn't exist. These kinds of legal actions were conventionally about that. This one has gone further because it's a way for the left to continue locking down mass immigration policies. Although you will read that Le Pen is far right in reality she is a classical left wing socialist with the policies typical of such a person, she is just against the EU and its migration policies. It's a purely ideological action, hence the ankle bracelet.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > This one has gone further because it's a way for the left to continue locking down mass immigration policies. Although you will read that Le Pen is far right in reality she is a classical left wing socialist with the policies typical of such a person, she is just against the EU and its migration policies. It's a purely ideological action, hence the ankle bracelet. You are absolutely delusional. This is on the same ballpark of the argument some brain damaged people repeat that the NSDAP was leftist because it had "socialist" in the party name.

Gud 2y ago

I disagree. Why should only EU positive parties get funding? Seems highly undemocratic to me.

surgical_fire 2y ago
Because it makes no sense for an institution to use funds to help those that want to see that institution dismantled. Especially where the rhetoric for dismantling that institution already took Europe in a very dark path a century ago.
- Gud 2y ago
  Yes, but it is bad for democracy if only one specific viewpoint, the viewpoint of the people in charge no less, is actively sponsored via taxes. Sorry, but you are representing the “a dark path”, where power is concentrated in the hands of a few.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > Yes, but it is bad for democracy if only one specific viewpoint, the viewpoint of the people in charge no less, is actively sponsored via taxes. And that is not what is happening. You can hold quite a lot of viewpoints, including opposing who is in charge. You just can't use EU funds to campaign for EU to be effectively abolished. Imagine someone running for presidency in the US campaigning for it to disintegrate. > Sorry, but you are representing the “a dark path”, where power is concentrated in the hands of a few. Quite the opposite. EU fragments power so much that fucking Orban gets to block any initiative, even though Hungary is far from being one of the main countries in the block. Also, very cute of you to cry authoritarianism when we are talking about Le Pen of all people, someone who holds very authoritarian views herself. Quite telling, whenever such a politician faces consequences of their bullshit, a lot of people come out of the woods to make excuses for them. Fuck that noise.
    - Gud 2y ago
      And why shouldn’t you be able to use EU funds for that? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if a political organisation that is pro EU gets funding, the opponents should be funded as well. What is beneficial to the EU as a organisation shouldn’t be a parameter at all, that’s not how democracy works. I agree that Marie Le Pen holds authoritarian views. When it comes to politicians this seems to be the rule rather than an exception. But that doesn’t make EU a particularly democratic organisation. In my opinion, it is rare to find politicians who try to increase democracy. Regarding your USA example, I believe it is only a nominally democratic state. I don’t think what they do over there is particularly good and should not be wused as a positive example. I believe the best example of a functioning democracy is Switzerland.

mike_hearn 2y ago

[flagged]

surgical_fire 2y ago
> That post was for the Americans who are waking up about now. You are just trying to excuse a plain case of embezzlement by dressing up as authoritarianism. Good that a cheater such as Le Pen is removed from elections. If democracy allows cheaters to run, that is shortcut to disaster. Were Le Pen able to win an election without embezzlement of EU funds, I would agree she is as popular as you claim. > And to the people who call themselves "European citizens", I would say this: you can build a positive, shared European identity without the EU. As someone that lives in an EU country, I fully disagree. Even the largest EU countries are relatively small for the world stage. Consider that Germany has the population of Chinese provinces. EU is an absurdly positive to every country involved, to the point where I actively desire further integration. Federalization of Europe should be the goal, not less integration. > The average rock concert does more for long term European integration than any EU regulation because the EU is not Europe and Europe is not the EU. The EU is a transient political arrangement, one that is by now actually working against true European integration. And this is the point where I come to conclusion you are arguing in bad faith. > The path it's on leads to ever harsher authoritarianism. Funny you mention this when you are crying about Le Pen and fucking AfD. Yeah, nothing authoritarian from those people. It is the EU that is truly authoritarian. Sure. Fuck that noise.