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I swear I'm not trying to take your bait, but I did want to point out that I want to live in a world where developers are responsible for running the products t

I swear I'm not trying to take your bait, but I did want to point out that I want to live in a world where developers are responsible for running the products that they produce, otherwise the incentives are not aligned and then -- relevant to this vibe discussion -- tossing slop over the wall becomes Situation Normal

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9rx 2y ago
You can certainly run the product, but engineered solutions should fail so infrequently that the idea of being "on call" becomes ridiculous. Of course, there are tradeoffs that come with that. You might not need engineering in your product.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  I am always wary of "should" sentences. As best I can tell, it's only ridiculous if every human in the whole chain executes flawlessly. I am cognizant that very few space shuttles blew up, but the amount of development and testing time that went into them is similarly impressive
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > but the amount of development and testing time that went into them is similarly impressive Absolutely. As before, there are tradeoffs to be made. Not all software needs engineering, and it may even be detrimental to it. But if you have proclaimed engineers working on your product...
arkh 2y ago
> running the products that they produce Awesome, products who live what? 1 year tops. One of last month fun bugs I got from a 10 year old ecosystem was due to some backend calling an API which (aside from fetching info from an API provided by the backend) needed data from some third system generating it using a CRON run mon-thu at 13h. The original input in this third system was done on thursday around 17h so it was not available on friday (date of the ticket) nor monday morning (which led to this treasure hunt) but things were automagically resolved around 13h15. Gotta love the world of in-house legacy applications.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  Well, 1 year is still made up of a lot of 5 minute increments in which some node.js app is spewing 500s as fast as computers can go

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9rx 2y ago

You can certainly run the product, but engineered solutions should fail so infrequently that the idea of being "on call" becomes ridiculous. Of course, there are tradeoffs that come with that. You might not need engineering in your product.

mdaniel 2y ago
I am always wary of "should" sentences. As best I can tell, it's only ridiculous if every human in the whole chain executes flawlessly. I am cognizant that very few space shuttles blew up, but the amount of development and testing time that went into them is similarly impressive
- 9rx 2y ago
  > but the amount of development and testing time that went into them is similarly impressive Absolutely. As before, there are tradeoffs to be made. Not all software needs engineering, and it may even be detrimental to it. But if you have proclaimed engineers working on your product...

arkh 2y ago

> running the products that they produce Awesome, products who live what? 1 year tops. One of last month fun bugs I got from a 10 year old ecosystem was due to some backend calling an API which (aside from fetching info from an API provided by the backend) needed data from some third system generating it using a CRON run mon-thu at 13h. The original input in this third system was done on thursday around 17h so it was not available on friday (date of the ticket) nor monday morning (which led to this treasure hunt) but things were automagically resolved around 13h15. Gotta love the world of in-house legacy applications.

mdaniel 2y ago
Well, 1 year is still made up of a lot of 5 minute increments in which some node.js app is spewing 500s as fast as computers can go