5 ms·

I agree that this is a huge improvement, but it's also over a decade late IMO. This should've been accomplished well before now, especially given that the issue

I agree that this is a huge improvement, but it's also over a decade late IMO. This should've been accomplished well before now, especially given that the issue has been there since the beginning.

ksec 2y ago
Over TWO decades late. It is crazy to think what we only just have in anything non JavaScript in the past 20 years.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
It's like how border-radius was added after rounded corners via images fell out of fashion.
true_religion 2y ago
I somehow feel Safari drags its feet on basic things platform improvements because they want to focus on iOS apps instead.
- alwillis 2y ago
  The narrative Safari is behind and Apple doesn’t care about the web is so tired… This 8,000+ word article on Safari 18.4 (released today, BTW) doesn’t read like an organization that doesn’t care about the web [1]. [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4/ https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4...
  - yujohn 2y ago
    [dead]
  - true_religion 2y ago
    The pace of improvement in the web is slow. I don’t want to debate if a mega corp cares or not, but compared to how UI frameworks were in the 90s, the developer experience is anemic. I don’t know if HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the best path forward. Maybe they are doing exactly what their spec set out to do. But we need something better that doesn’t leash one to an ecosystem that takes 30% of your revenue.
- arp242 2y ago
  Eh; the standard is two weeks old. Written by someone working for Apple by the way.
  - true_religion 2y ago
    I’m wondering where in my comment it sounded like I wanted this standard specially to be implemented yesterday?
pclmulqdq 2y ago
Because frontend is frontend, Javascript frameworks dominated the conversation even for silly things like basic web forms for the past 15 years. Basic HTML/CSS is now catching up to the fact that not everyone wants to run a Javascript monstrosity for custom styling on very basic tasks.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- no_wizard 2y ago
  The prevalence of JS and JS backed components is due to the reluctance of browser vendors to introduce new HTML elements that everyone has been lobbying for in the same time period. By and large browser vendors for the longest time, even today still in many respects, repeatedly ignore pleas for more elements that cover common use cases. Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters How are those half-baked? No smooth transition for details/summary, maybe? Dialog seems to work well enough with little to no javascript required: <dialog> <h3>Warning:</h3> ... <button onclick='this.closest("dialog").close()'>Dismiss</button> </dialog> My personal bugbear is the date/time input - FF doesn't even show a click element for time, you have to type in the time.
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      There's some quirks with the API around open vs openModal if you aren't aware of the accessibility implications you may not even realize this is the case. Forms have some special quirks inside of a dialog. The biggest thing though, is for the life of me I don't understand why you can't open and close a dialog without JavaScript. There's no way to do it.

I agree that this is a huge improvement, but it's also over a decade late IMO. This should've been accomplished well before now, especially given that the issue has been there since the beginning.

ksec 2y ago

Over TWO decades late. It is crazy to think what we only just have in anything non JavaScript in the past 20 years.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

It's like how border-radius was added after rounded corners via images fell out of fashion.

true_religion 2y ago

I somehow feel Safari drags its feet on basic things platform improvements because they want to focus on iOS apps instead.

alwillis 2y ago
The narrative Safari is behind and Apple doesn’t care about the web is so tired… This 8,000+ word article on Safari 18.4 (released today, BTW) doesn’t read like an organization that doesn’t care about the web [1]. [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4/ https://webkit.org/blog/16574/webkit-features-in-safari-18-4...
- yujohn 2y ago
  [dead]
- true_religion 2y ago
  The pace of improvement in the web is slow. I don’t want to debate if a mega corp cares or not, but compared to how UI frameworks were in the 90s, the developer experience is anemic. I don’t know if HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the best path forward. Maybe they are doing exactly what their spec set out to do. But we need something better that doesn’t leash one to an ecosystem that takes 30% of your revenue.
arp242 2y ago
Eh; the standard is two weeks old. Written by someone working for Apple by the way.
- true_religion 2y ago
  I’m wondering where in my comment it sounded like I wanted this standard specially to be implemented yesterday?

pclmulqdq 2y ago

Because frontend is frontend, Javascript frameworks dominated the conversation even for silly things like basic web forms for the past 15 years. Basic HTML/CSS is now catching up to the fact that not everyone wants to run a Javascript monstrosity for custom styling on very basic tasks.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
no_wizard 2y ago
The prevalence of JS and JS backed components is due to the reluctance of browser vendors to introduce new HTML elements that everyone has been lobbying for in the same time period. By and large browser vendors for the longest time, even today still in many respects, repeatedly ignore pleas for more elements that cover common use cases. Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Even when they do arrive, they can be half baked - like dialog or details / summary - and that doesn’t help matters How are those half-baked? No smooth transition for details/summary, maybe? Dialog seems to work well enough with little to no javascript required: <dialog> <h3>Warning:</h3> ... <button onclick='this.closest("dialog").close()'>Dismiss</button> </dialog> My personal bugbear is the date/time input - FF doesn't even show a click element for time, you have to type in the time.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    There's some quirks with the API around open vs openModal if you aren't aware of the accessibility implications you may not even realize this is the case. Forms have some special quirks inside of a dialog. The biggest thing though, is for the life of me I don't understand why you can't open and close a dialog without JavaScript. There's no way to do it.