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Because Tren de Aragua is from Venezuela? A certain political bent seems to believe that everyone in the world has some undeniable right to emigrate wherever,

by 15155 2y ago

Because Tren de Aragua is from Venezuela? A certain political bent seems to believe that everyone in the world has some undeniable right to emigrate wherever, whenever. An American illegally immigrating to Europe for financial gain (work) would be deported forthwith just for having done so. Now imagine if that same American were involved in violent crime - is this a desirable element? Should their offspring automatically become citizens of said European country?

miracle2k 2y ago
> An American illegally immigrating to Europe for financial gain (work) would be deported forthwith just for having done so. They would be afforded a way to challenge their deportation, not be denied access to a lawyer, sent to a foreign gulag on the account of a random guys interpretation of their tattoos, then having videos of themselves in chain gangs posted on the governments social media. There is really nothing defensible here at all.
- 15155 2y ago
  > They would be afforded a way to challenge their deportation So all one has to do is obtain a critical mass of illegal immigrants who "challenge" their deportations, clog up any court system created for this purpose, and they're good to go - continue working illegally for years?
  - anotherhue 2y ago
    You have described Ireland.
    - josefritzishere 2y ago
      Except they're not all in jail.
pjc50 2y ago
This argument is all very well, and I think there would be little appetite for complaining if it was only deporting people convicted of crimes. But that's not what's happening. In particular, the incidents of revoking student visas for exercising their first amendment rights and then deporting people with no further process are very concerning.
- 15155 2y ago
  A visa is a revocable privilege - not a right. You have the right to free speech - and you will not be prosecuted, fined, or put into prison: deportation isn't prison. Alien visitors are not entitled to the spoils of citizenship - what is citizenship, otherwise?
  - piva00 2y ago
    Alien visitors are entitled to all rights in the soil of the USA, citizenship increases their means to participate in civics but it's not citizenship who grants rights like freedom of speech, etc. > You have the right to free speech - and you will not be prosecuted, fined, or put into prison: deportation isn't prison. Oh damn, what a nice loophole you found there, deporting them to a gulag in El Salvador isn't technically imprisonment in some twisted legal semantics game... To every other functioning mature democracy it's imprisonment.
    - 15155 2y ago
      > Alien visitors are entitled to all rights in the soil of the USA Except voting, firearms ownership, the ability to work, etc. What else? (* sans LPR status - they're not 'rights' if someone can take them away, though.) I love how "behave or go home" now equals "imprisonment." Please keep espousing this nonsense: 2028 will be fun.
      - piva00 2y ago
        > Except voting, firearms ownership, the ability to work, etc. What else? (* sans LPR status - they're not 'rights' if someone can take them away, though.) Those are further regulated in other laws, freedom of speech is clearly defined in your Constitution to be unregulated by any laws the government shall pass. You're saying that is completely fine for the US government to regulate speech of non-citizens, rather surprising to see an American spouting this position but glad to see you clearly stand for it, ironic though it's quite anti-American to believe speech can be curtailed by the government when it fits your wants :) > Please keep espousing this nonsense: 2028 will be fun. You seem to be too compromised ideologically to have any rational discussion around this topic. Sad to see Americans subscribing to anti-freedom ideology whole-heartedly but it seems to be the way in 2025. Not very fun to watch, just quite sad to see that even on this corner of the internet where one expects more leveled discourse to have gone this way.
jmull 2y ago
> A certain political bent seems to believe that everyone in the world has some undeniable right to emigrate wherever, whenever. A straw man argument. (No doubt such people exist, but on the fringe.) From that you build an unfounded binary argument. It’s just basic logic: just because it’s not a good idea to let anyone immigrate anywhere without restriction doesn’t make it a good idea to put people in prison on scant evidence. (I wonder why do you image that when basic principles of justice and the rule of law like due process are gone, this won’t be turned on you and yours?) > …involved in violent crime. Should their offspring automatically become citizens of said European country? An entirely separate question, is it not? Unless you’re saying criminality is inherited?

by 15155 2y ago

miracle2k 2y ago

> An American illegally immigrating to Europe for financial gain (work) would be deported forthwith just for having done so. They would be afforded a way to challenge their deportation, not be denied access to a lawyer, sent to a foreign gulag on the account of a random guys interpretation of their tattoos, then having videos of themselves in chain gangs posted on the governments social media. There is really nothing defensible here at all.

15155 2y ago
> They would be afforded a way to challenge their deportation So all one has to do is obtain a critical mass of illegal immigrants who "challenge" their deportations, clog up any court system created for this purpose, and they're good to go - continue working illegally for years?
- anotherhue 2y ago
  You have described Ireland.
  - josefritzishere 2y ago
    Except they're not all in jail.

pjc50 2y ago

This argument is all very well, and I think there would be little appetite for complaining if it was only deporting people convicted of crimes. But that's not what's happening. In particular, the incidents of revoking student visas for exercising their first amendment rights and then deporting people with no further process are very concerning.

15155 2y ago
A visa is a revocable privilege - not a right. You have the right to free speech - and you will not be prosecuted, fined, or put into prison: deportation isn't prison. Alien visitors are not entitled to the spoils of citizenship - what is citizenship, otherwise?
- piva00 2y ago
  Alien visitors are entitled to all rights in the soil of the USA, citizenship increases their means to participate in civics but it's not citizenship who grants rights like freedom of speech, etc. > You have the right to free speech - and you will not be prosecuted, fined, or put into prison: deportation isn't prison. Oh damn, what a nice loophole you found there, deporting them to a gulag in El Salvador isn't technically imprisonment in some twisted legal semantics game... To every other functioning mature democracy it's imprisonment.
  - 15155 2y ago
    > Alien visitors are entitled to all rights in the soil of the USA Except voting, firearms ownership, the ability to work, etc. What else? (* sans LPR status - they're not 'rights' if someone can take them away, though.) I love how "behave or go home" now equals "imprisonment." Please keep espousing this nonsense: 2028 will be fun.
    - piva00 2y ago
      > Except voting, firearms ownership, the ability to work, etc. What else? (* sans LPR status - they're not 'rights' if someone can take them away, though.) Those are further regulated in other laws, freedom of speech is clearly defined in your Constitution to be unregulated by any laws the government shall pass. You're saying that is completely fine for the US government to regulate speech of non-citizens, rather surprising to see an American spouting this position but glad to see you clearly stand for it, ironic though it's quite anti-American to believe speech can be curtailed by the government when it fits your wants :) > Please keep espousing this nonsense: 2028 will be fun. You seem to be too compromised ideologically to have any rational discussion around this topic. Sad to see Americans subscribing to anti-freedom ideology whole-heartedly but it seems to be the way in 2025. Not very fun to watch, just quite sad to see that even on this corner of the internet where one expects more leveled discourse to have gone this way.

jmull 2y ago

> A certain political bent seems to believe that everyone in the world has some undeniable right to emigrate wherever, whenever. A straw man argument. (No doubt such people exist, but on the fringe.) From that you build an unfounded binary argument. It’s just basic logic: just because it’s not a good idea to let anyone immigrate anywhere without restriction doesn’t make it a good idea to put people in prison on scant evidence. (I wonder why do you image that when basic principles of justice and the rule of law like due process are gone, this won’t be turned on you and yours?) > …involved in violent crime. Should their offspring automatically become citizens of said European country? An entirely separate question, is it not? Unless you’re saying criminality is inherited?