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> Where do you draw the line between "When there are no judicial penalties [...] eventually people seek extrajudicial ones" and "some nutjob went on a shooting

> Where do you draw the line between "When there are no judicial penalties [...] eventually people seek extrajudicial ones" and "some nutjob went on a shooting spree"? Perhaps the point where people like you try to depict regular people acting out of despair as nut jobs. Think for a minute: one of the most popular tv shows in modern history is a story of a man with an elite education going to the extreme of running a small criminal organization due to financial pressure caused by a life-threatening medical condition. That was what the US watched for years for escapism.

kortilla 2y ago
One of the other most popular shows is about a serial killer. Another is about corporate lawyers fighting for power. People didn’t care about the premise of medical debt at all. It could have just have easily been coercion to pay a ransom. The plot only needed him to be innocent for the initial hook.
gruez 2y ago
>Perhaps the point where people like you try to depict regular people acting out of despair as nut jobs. Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". He came from a wealthy family, had ivy league education, and wasn't even denied coverage. At best you could argue he was in "despair" because of his botched back surgery, but that's hardly a reason to shoot the UNH CEO. >Think for a minute: one of the most popular tv shows in modern history is a story of a man with an elite education going to the extreme of running a small criminal organization due to financial pressure caused by a life-threatening medical condition. That was what the US watched for years for escapism. It really isn't. Any critical viewing of the series would reveal that Walter was doing it out of pride rather than necessity. His ex-business partners at Grey Matter even offered to pay for his treatment, but he refused.
- motorest 2y ago
  > Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". Was Luigi already tried and found to guilty? Don't let your bias show. Also, your blend of argument feels like a straw man. You're not actually debating who pulled the trigger, but why millions of people suddenly and enthusiastically support a random assassination of a CEO of a health insurance company. Why do you think that happens? Can you conceive any explanation?
- no_wizard 2y ago
  > Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". He came from a wealthy family, had ivy league education, and wasn't even denied coverage. You’re arguing despair is only driven by socioeconomic factors. This ignores the very real despair one can go through and have a lasting effect on going through the medical system, seeing loved ones, friends and colleagues struggle with it, and a myriad of other vectors that can and do cause feelings of despair
  - gruez 2y ago
    >This ignores the very real despair one can go through and have a lasting effect on going through the medical system, seeing loved ones, friends and colleagues struggle with it, and a myriad of other vectors that can and do cause feelings of despair Surely if he was pushed to violence for personal reasons, you'd expect him to shoot up the hospital that botched his back surgery? Why shoot the CEO of a company where he had no personal connection to? Does "despair" just mean any sort of grievance? Can you say that someone shooting up a planned parenthood clinic was because "despair" at "babies being killed" or whatever?
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      I feel this situation is similar to that of Jacobellis v. Ohio in which Justice Potter Stewart could not define what hardcore pornography was, but he knew it when he saw it. Theres 2nd order effects at play in this case that make it unique and unlike other ones. Even including other cases where there are acts of violence for what on the surface would seem like similar reasons. Therefore no I don't think you can extrapolate this into broader politically motivated violence and/or forms of despair. This case is sufficiently unique in its context and should be viewed as such. Folks are free to disagree, that is how I feel about it though. And as for the accused, I will not try and speak for the accused, as its not my place to.

kortilla 2y ago

One of the other most popular shows is about a serial killer. Another is about corporate lawyers fighting for power. People didn’t care about the premise of medical debt at all. It could have just have easily been coercion to pay a ransom. The plot only needed him to be innocent for the initial hook.

gruez 2y ago

>Perhaps the point where people like you try to depict regular people acting out of despair as nut jobs. Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". He came from a wealthy family, had ivy league education, and wasn't even denied coverage. At best you could argue he was in "despair" because of his botched back surgery, but that's hardly a reason to shoot the UNH CEO. >Think for a minute: one of the most popular tv shows in modern history is a story of a man with an elite education going to the extreme of running a small criminal organization due to financial pressure caused by a life-threatening medical condition. That was what the US watched for years for escapism. It really isn't. Any critical viewing of the series would reveal that Walter was doing it out of pride rather than necessity. His ex-business partners at Grey Matter even offered to pay for his treatment, but he refused.

motorest 2y ago
> Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". Was Luigi already tried and found to guilty? Don't let your bias show. Also, your blend of argument feels like a straw man. You're not actually debating who pulled the trigger, but why millions of people suddenly and enthusiastically support a random assassination of a CEO of a health insurance company. Why do you think that happens? Can you conceive any explanation?
no_wizard 2y ago
> Mangione was most certainly not "acting out of despair". He came from a wealthy family, had ivy league education, and wasn't even denied coverage. You’re arguing despair is only driven by socioeconomic factors. This ignores the very real despair one can go through and have a lasting effect on going through the medical system, seeing loved ones, friends and colleagues struggle with it, and a myriad of other vectors that can and do cause feelings of despair
- gruez 2y ago
  >This ignores the very real despair one can go through and have a lasting effect on going through the medical system, seeing loved ones, friends and colleagues struggle with it, and a myriad of other vectors that can and do cause feelings of despair Surely if he was pushed to violence for personal reasons, you'd expect him to shoot up the hospital that botched his back surgery? Why shoot the CEO of a company where he had no personal connection to? Does "despair" just mean any sort of grievance? Can you say that someone shooting up a planned parenthood clinic was because "despair" at "babies being killed" or whatever?
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    I feel this situation is similar to that of Jacobellis v. Ohio in which Justice Potter Stewart could not define what hardcore pornography was, but he knew it when he saw it. Theres 2nd order effects at play in this case that make it unique and unlike other ones. Even including other cases where there are acts of violence for what on the surface would seem like similar reasons. Therefore no I don't think you can extrapolate this into broader politically motivated violence and/or forms of despair. This case is sufficiently unique in its context and should be viewed as such. Folks are free to disagree, that is how I feel about it though. And as for the accused, I will not try and speak for the accused, as its not my place to.