5 ms·

I don't really care, tbh. There are better rights to fight for: food, shelter, education, healthcare. If said freedom of speech had been to be used to fight for

I don't really care, tbh. There are better rights to fight for: food, shelter, education, healthcare. If said freedom of speech had been to be used to fight for materially meaningful rights, I'd be a big fan. Most Americans never bothered to use the right in any way that improved this country. You don't use it, you lose it. As it stands most people associate it with the right to behave like a dick in public.

lblume 2y ago
Free speech should be considered a non-negotiable human right. You can't just trade those off against each other. The distinction into "materially meaningful" rights in my opinion just shows how easily both types of rights are taken for granted until noticeably revoked.
- facile3232 2y ago
  It's not even a coherent concept the way westerners use it. I would be much happier if we called it "acceptable speech" or something to acknowledge you can't call for dismembering your Tutsi cockroach neighbor. Idk why, maybe I'm just being sensitive. "Free speech" as a right seems pretty useless without material rights. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. What does that even look like? But we can trace all this crappy formulation of civics to the brain rot that is worshiping the enlightenment and founding fathers. Why is this still a thing in 2025? Nobody is putting a gun to your head to care about Jefferson or Locke or the actual basis of our society, Hobbes. We can chuck the entire concept of rights out the window and come up with agreements surrounding social behavior that actually reflect the society and culture we have today or want tomorrow.
  - cvz 2y ago
    > We can chuck the entire concept of rights out the window and come up with agreements surrounding social behavior that actually reflect the society and culture we have today or want tomorrow. What, exactly, do you think a right even is, if not an agreement that something cannot be done to people or cannot be taken away from them?
cowhow 2y ago
Just like oxygen, free speech is one of those things that you don't miss until you lose it. You use it everyday without even realizing it. In a country without free speech protections, expressing an unpopular opinion about a political party or hot topic can get you thrown in prison. Look at the Syrian Assad regime or the current Chinese administration. People are arrested for merely being negative in social media posts. I can totally see the US going in that direction. You can be nonchalant about this if you want, be there are very good reasons people are getting up in arms about this erosion of our protections.
- facile3232 2y ago
  What's the point without a political pathway to remediate anything? We haven't done basically anything to fix what we were complaining about 50 years ago. At least in prison they'll feed me or kill me, two things they'll otherwise refuse to do until you commit a crime. Frankly, I would prefer a world where everyone agreed the government was shit but nobody could complain. It's better than people openly defending evil people and calling it the height of democracy. If that's democracy give me the PRC any day.
cvz 2y ago
The reason you don't see "free speech" used for those causes isn't because they don't rely on free speech. It's because advocacy for them is so clearly protected as free speech that it isn't even a question. There have been times when that protection was a question in the U.S., like when protesting wars or segregation laws. Without the right to say something, there is no legal way to organize or to demand any other right. Edited to remove an unwarranted statement at the beginning of this comment.
- facile3232 2y ago
  > Without the right to say something, there is no legal way to organize or to demand any other right. Americans don't do this, though. They don't demand better. They accept shitty governance and say "at least I voted". And frankly I don't think they ever will. So I say, fuck it, let's just all accept that government is shitty and mostly exists to squeeze us for money. We can finally stop acting like it's representative of us. When y'all finally have had enough riots will work just as fine as they did before.
  - cvz 2y ago
    > Americans don't do this, though. They don't demand better. They accept shitty governance and say "at least I voted". And frankly I don't think they ever will. That is an obviously wrong statement even if we only look at protests within the past 5 years.
    - facile3232 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - collingreen 2y ago
    Maybe some of us don't want to devolve into cutting off people's heads and asking questions later?
    - facile3232 2y ago
      Perhaps if liberals read non-liberals they would have acquired an imagination in the last two hundred years. Obviously that's far from the only path forward outside of your sick fantasies.

lblume 2y ago

Free speech should be considered a non-negotiable human right. You can't just trade those off against each other. The distinction into "materially meaningful" rights in my opinion just shows how easily both types of rights are taken for granted until noticeably revoked.

facile3232 2y ago
It's not even a coherent concept the way westerners use it. I would be much happier if we called it "acceptable speech" or something to acknowledge you can't call for dismembering your Tutsi cockroach neighbor. Idk why, maybe I'm just being sensitive. "Free speech" as a right seems pretty useless without material rights. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. What does that even look like? But we can trace all this crappy formulation of civics to the brain rot that is worshiping the enlightenment and founding fathers. Why is this still a thing in 2025? Nobody is putting a gun to your head to care about Jefferson or Locke or the actual basis of our society, Hobbes. We can chuck the entire concept of rights out the window and come up with agreements surrounding social behavior that actually reflect the society and culture we have today or want tomorrow.
- cvz 2y ago
  > We can chuck the entire concept of rights out the window and come up with agreements surrounding social behavior that actually reflect the society and culture we have today or want tomorrow. What, exactly, do you think a right even is, if not an agreement that something cannot be done to people or cannot be taken away from them?

cowhow 2y ago

Just like oxygen, free speech is one of those things that you don't miss until you lose it. You use it everyday without even realizing it. In a country without free speech protections, expressing an unpopular opinion about a political party or hot topic can get you thrown in prison. Look at the Syrian Assad regime or the current Chinese administration. People are arrested for merely being negative in social media posts. I can totally see the US going in that direction. You can be nonchalant about this if you want, be there are very good reasons people are getting up in arms about this erosion of our protections.

facile3232 2y ago
What's the point without a political pathway to remediate anything? We haven't done basically anything to fix what we were complaining about 50 years ago. At least in prison they'll feed me or kill me, two things they'll otherwise refuse to do until you commit a crime. Frankly, I would prefer a world where everyone agreed the government was shit but nobody could complain. It's better than people openly defending evil people and calling it the height of democracy. If that's democracy give me the PRC any day.

cvz 2y ago

The reason you don't see "free speech" used for those causes isn't because they don't rely on free speech. It's because advocacy for them is so clearly protected as free speech that it isn't even a question. There have been times when that protection was a question in the U.S., like when protesting wars or segregation laws. Without the right to say something, there is no legal way to organize or to demand any other right. Edited to remove an unwarranted statement at the beginning of this comment.

facile3232 2y ago
> Without the right to say something, there is no legal way to organize or to demand any other right. Americans don't do this, though. They don't demand better. They accept shitty governance and say "at least I voted". And frankly I don't think they ever will. So I say, fuck it, let's just all accept that government is shitty and mostly exists to squeeze us for money. We can finally stop acting like it's representative of us. When y'all finally have had enough riots will work just as fine as they did before.
- cvz 2y ago
  > Americans don't do this, though. They don't demand better. They accept shitty governance and say "at least I voted". And frankly I don't think they ever will. That is an obviously wrong statement even if we only look at protests within the past 5 years.
  - facile3232 2y ago
    [flagged]
- collingreen 2y ago
  Maybe some of us don't want to devolve into cutting off people's heads and asking questions later?
  - facile3232 2y ago
    Perhaps if liberals read non-liberals they would have acquired an imagination in the last two hundred years. Obviously that's far from the only path forward outside of your sick fantasies.