4 ms·

As a person who lived in the States for a bit, and listened to a lot of news, I remember always this almost fawning over the Founding Fathers, checks and balanc

As a person who lived in the States for a bit, and listened to a lot of news, I remember always this almost fawning over the Founding Fathers, checks and balances and great American constitution. It is remarkable, how easy it all goes, and most people don't do anything (i.e. out of 100 top law firms, only a handful joined the lawsuit against the government, etc.)

uoaei 2y ago
The people fawning and the people rejecting the Founders' intentions are two separate groups of people. Media is the practice of including and excluding voices, and there are distinct trends over time of representing one or another set of voices.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > The people fawning and the people rejecting the Founders' intentions are two separate groups of people. The same people supporting Trump, from national thought leaders like Heritage and the Federalist society, to Murdoch publications (Fos, WSJ), to everyday people on social media have long pushed hard for expanded Second Amendment rights, expended freedom of religion which outweighs all other considerations and rights, and freedom of speech, etc. for right-wing hate speech (including their focus on social media moderation) - just as examples.
  - pmarreck 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mmooss 2y ago
      But why use AI? Why not just write your own response?
      - pmarreck 2y ago
        I have a toddler and zero assistance other than daycare. IYKYK.
        mmooss 2y ago
        That is the best use case for LLMs that I've heard! Best of luck to you and your toddler.
- kristopolous 2y ago
  They're the same ultra-nationalists. I just did a quick twitter search for "founding fathers". Here we have, in order: People tab: "I love our founding fathers": https://x.com/Stephan73992604 https://x.com/Stephan73992604 "Founding Fathers daily": https://x.com/FFoundersDaily https://x.com/FFoundersDaily Someone with [heart] founding fathers: https://x.com/JKernerOT https://x.com/JKernerOT Top tweets: Rush Limbaugh: https://x.com/LimbaughLegacy/status/1906424705336180913 https://x.com/LimbaughLegacy/status/1906424705336180913 "ThePatrioticBlonde": https://x.com/ImBreckWorsham/status/1904301594717651038 https://x.com/ImBreckWorsham/status/1904301594717651038 And an actual anti-semite: https://x.com/GnoticeUs/status/1906465034823499806 https://x.com/GnoticeUs/status/1906465034823499806 And the most recent: https://x.com/SwampFox1795/status/1906554560094576889 https://x.com/SwampFox1795/status/1906554560094576889 https://x.com/tablewithannie/status/1906554512472736060 https://x.com/tablewithannie/status/1906554512472736060 https://x.com/jp_peter51132/status/1906555671040102769 https://x.com/jp_peter51132/status/1906555671040102769 The ultra-nationalists love national myth and imagery. Always have. See the picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Squ... Displays of nationalism and patriotism is mostly just a disciplining tactic by authoritarians who want unquestioning loyalty simply by displaying superficial symbols and gestures. It's a way to claim the authority of the dead, to manufacture legitimacy through association. So now you're questioning the flag as opposed to the person waving it telling you what to do.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
762236 2y ago
[flagged]
- smt88 2y ago
  > No checks and balances have been cancelled. "President Donald Trump's administration made a calculated decision to ignore a judge's directive to turn around two flights containing hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members, sources familiar with the matter told ABC News."[1] > The article is showing one side. Please share the other side of the examples given in the article. 1. https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-admin-ignores-judges-order-bring-deportation-planes/story?id=119857181 https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-admin-ignores-judges-order-b...
giantg2 2y ago
The fawning is always about whatever topic the speaker cares about. It just an emotional tactic. Not everyone cares about the founding father's views in the same way. Not to mention, there was a variety of opinions even amongst themselves.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
As an American, I agree - I'm pretty surprised at how nakedly transparent the whole thing has been. One basic example - I thought pretty much everyone agreed that at least some level of due process is just inherent to the rights of everyone in the US. When I hear administration figures arguing that flying the Venezuelans to El Salvadoran prisons is a good thing because "they're really bad dudes", I think "OK, and we're just supposed to trust that you and you alone can make that determination?" It has already been reported that multiple people had no ties to the Tren de Aragua gang, but were solely imprisoned due to their tattoos. When I took civics in high school this is exactly the type of stuff that we learned that basically "the US does not do", and there was an inherent pride in that fact. So like you I'm surprised at how quickly and transparently it all got washed away.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  They started this tactic of "They're bad dudes trust us don't need a trial" during the Bush administration and many many people pointed out this would come to our shores soon, and it did and it's here again.
  - soraminazuki 2y ago
    Yeah, not prosecuting serious violations of law like war crimes, tortue, and mass surveillance was a serious mistake that lead to this situation. It reinforced a culture of impunity for those in power. Because people allowed this to happen, the current administration is now more emboldened than its recent predecessors ever have been.
    - mrtesthah 2y ago
      Even if the Obama administration had prosecuted GWB, the recent Supreme Court ruling on Trump's presidential immunity would have superseded all that. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-supreme-court-decision-on-trump-and-presidential-immunity https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-supreme-...
wrs 2y ago
What we’re experiencing is a group exploiting the biggest vulnerability in the American system, one that was known to the founding fathers. If you can get enough people to vote for you and your friends, then all of the checks and balances will eventually fail against you, because in the end they’re all dependent on the populace not voting for people who corrupt the system. It probably wouldn’t have seemed plausible to them that someone could be impeached twice and convicted of fraud, then win the popular vote.
- soraminazuki 2y ago
  > It probably wouldn’t have seemed plausible to them Or more like there is no solution to this besides telling people to be vigilant about protecting their democracies.
  - whoisthemachine 2y ago
    "A republic, if can keep it". [0] https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-library/classroom/perspectives-on-the-constitution-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-...
- coolhand2120 2y ago
  Is your argument that when a political party hold all major branches of government that it is implicitly corrupt? Or are you arguing that one side is corrupt and the other is not? Is there a theoretical situation where a single party gaining control is simply the will of the voters? That appears to be a potential valid outcome.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    It's one big component of being corrrupt, yes. >Is there a theoretical situation where a single party gaining control is simply the will of the voters? Sure. But not with the current electoral college and its exploits, as well as literal election bribery that is publicly admitted to.
  - 2y ago
dj_gitmo 2y ago
During the first Trump term, most of the institutions did resist Trump. The fact that he go reelected after his first term was so chaotic and scandalous has basically demoralized everyone. There are other factors, like the utter failure of Biden and the democrats, but its hard to recon with the fact that people are so far gone at this point.
- bentobean 2y ago
  I don’t feel demoralized.
tokioyoyo 2y ago
My understanding is, anyone who resists will get crucified and lose money. Nobody wants to lose customers or money. It's funny when you talk to people with money, who completely disagree with the administration, will go and say the opposite publicly because they don't want to deal with the mob.
abustamam 2y ago
As an American born to immigrants, I love the vision of the founding fathers, but I don't understand why they are so revered by some. They were slave owners who, at the time, had some pretty radical ideas for how to run a country. Some ideas were great and stood the test of time, and some were terrible and required amendments. We can't solve today's problems by thinking like dudes from the 1700s.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  At the same time, some ideas were great but scales of economy and population ruined them. e.g. The house of represenatives should probably number over 1000 today to properly work as structured in the founding papers. But we somewhat arbitrarily capped it at 435 100 years ago. now while that's way too many people per rep, most political scientists don't really suggest that we should have 1200 reps in the House. proposals end up more around 700. some reverence may simply be patriotism. I suppose it's no different than any other kinds of celebrity style of worship. people like a role model.
  - abustamam 2y ago
    That's interesting, that's a good point though. Fundamentally, patriotism is no different than other kinds of celebrity worship, but practically, more people are willing to do terrible things in the name of patriotism than they are for any A List celebrity. Can substitute patriotism with religion as well. Patriotism seems more akin to religion to me, now that I think of it. I don't know if that is good or bad.
FlyingSnake 2y ago
My thoughts exactly. I’ve lived in the USA and saw the Iowa caucus and election process up close. For a country that was the self proclaimed arbitrator of democracy all over the world, I’m shocked how fragile their own checks-and-balances system is. The lack of opposition to this complete takeover is astounding. I hope USA survives this phase and comes out stronger and more resilient to further such events.

uoaei 2y ago

The people fawning and the people rejecting the Founders' intentions are two separate groups of people. Media is the practice of including and excluding voices, and there are distinct trends over time of representing one or another set of voices.

mmooss 2y ago
> The people fawning and the people rejecting the Founders' intentions are two separate groups of people. The same people supporting Trump, from national thought leaders like Heritage and the Federalist society, to Murdoch publications (Fos, WSJ), to everyday people on social media have long pushed hard for expanded Second Amendment rights, expended freedom of religion which outweighs all other considerations and rights, and freedom of speech, etc. for right-wing hate speech (including their focus on social media moderation) - just as examples.
- pmarreck 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mmooss 2y ago
    But why use AI? Why not just write your own response?
    - pmarreck 2y ago
      I have a toddler and zero assistance other than daycare. IYKYK.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        That is the best use case for LLMs that I've heard! Best of luck to you and your toddler.
kristopolous 2y ago
They're the same ultra-nationalists. I just did a quick twitter search for "founding fathers". Here we have, in order: People tab: "I love our founding fathers": https://x.com/Stephan73992604 https://x.com/Stephan73992604 "Founding Fathers daily": https://x.com/FFoundersDaily https://x.com/FFoundersDaily Someone with [heart] founding fathers: https://x.com/JKernerOT https://x.com/JKernerOT Top tweets: Rush Limbaugh: https://x.com/LimbaughLegacy/status/1906424705336180913 https://x.com/LimbaughLegacy/status/1906424705336180913 "ThePatrioticBlonde": https://x.com/ImBreckWorsham/status/1904301594717651038 https://x.com/ImBreckWorsham/status/1904301594717651038 And an actual anti-semite: https://x.com/GnoticeUs/status/1906465034823499806 https://x.com/GnoticeUs/status/1906465034823499806 And the most recent: https://x.com/SwampFox1795/status/1906554560094576889 https://x.com/SwampFox1795/status/1906554560094576889 https://x.com/tablewithannie/status/1906554512472736060 https://x.com/tablewithannie/status/1906554512472736060 https://x.com/jp_peter51132/status/1906555671040102769 https://x.com/jp_peter51132/status/1906555671040102769 The ultra-nationalists love national myth and imagery. Always have. See the picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Squ... Displays of nationalism and patriotism is mostly just a disciplining tactic by authoritarians who want unquestioning loyalty simply by displaying superficial symbols and gestures. It's a way to claim the authority of the dead, to manufacture legitimacy through association. So now you're questioning the flag as opposed to the person waving it telling you what to do.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

762236 2y ago

[flagged]

smt88 2y ago
> No checks and balances have been cancelled. "President Donald Trump's administration made a calculated decision to ignore a judge's directive to turn around two flights containing hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members, sources familiar with the matter told ABC News."[1] > The article is showing one side. Please share the other side of the examples given in the article. 1. https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-admin-ignores-judges-order-bring-deportation-planes/story?id=119857181 https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-admin-ignores-judges-order-b...

giantg2 2y ago

The fawning is always about whatever topic the speaker cares about. It just an emotional tactic. Not everyone cares about the founding father's views in the same way. Not to mention, there was a variety of opinions even amongst themselves.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

As an American, I agree - I'm pretty surprised at how nakedly transparent the whole thing has been. One basic example - I thought pretty much everyone agreed that at least some level of due process is just inherent to the rights of everyone in the US. When I hear administration figures arguing that flying the Venezuelans to El Salvadoran prisons is a good thing because "they're really bad dudes", I think "OK, and we're just supposed to trust that you and you alone can make that determination?" It has already been reported that multiple people had no ties to the Tren de Aragua gang, but were solely imprisoned due to their tattoos. When I took civics in high school this is exactly the type of stuff that we learned that basically "the US does not do", and there was an inherent pride in that fact. So like you I'm surprised at how quickly and transparently it all got washed away.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
They started this tactic of "They're bad dudes trust us don't need a trial" during the Bush administration and many many people pointed out this would come to our shores soon, and it did and it's here again.
- soraminazuki 2y ago
  Yeah, not prosecuting serious violations of law like war crimes, tortue, and mass surveillance was a serious mistake that lead to this situation. It reinforced a culture of impunity for those in power. Because people allowed this to happen, the current administration is now more emboldened than its recent predecessors ever have been.
  - mrtesthah 2y ago
    Even if the Obama administration had prosecuted GWB, the recent Supreme Court ruling on Trump's presidential immunity would have superseded all that. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-supreme-court-decision-on-trump-and-presidential-immunity https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-the-full-supreme-...

wrs 2y ago

What we’re experiencing is a group exploiting the biggest vulnerability in the American system, one that was known to the founding fathers. If you can get enough people to vote for you and your friends, then all of the checks and balances will eventually fail against you, because in the end they’re all dependent on the populace not voting for people who corrupt the system. It probably wouldn’t have seemed plausible to them that someone could be impeached twice and convicted of fraud, then win the popular vote.

soraminazuki 2y ago
> It probably wouldn’t have seemed plausible to them Or more like there is no solution to this besides telling people to be vigilant about protecting their democracies.
- whoisthemachine 2y ago
  "A republic, if can keep it". [0] https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-library/classroom/perspectives-on-the-constitution-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-...
coolhand2120 2y ago
Is your argument that when a political party hold all major branches of government that it is implicitly corrupt? Or are you arguing that one side is corrupt and the other is not? Is there a theoretical situation where a single party gaining control is simply the will of the voters? That appears to be a potential valid outcome.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  It's one big component of being corrrupt, yes. >Is there a theoretical situation where a single party gaining control is simply the will of the voters? Sure. But not with the current electoral college and its exploits, as well as literal election bribery that is publicly admitted to.
- 2y ago

dj_gitmo 2y ago

During the first Trump term, most of the institutions did resist Trump. The fact that he go reelected after his first term was so chaotic and scandalous has basically demoralized everyone. There are other factors, like the utter failure of Biden and the democrats, but its hard to recon with the fact that people are so far gone at this point.

bentobean 2y ago
I don’t feel demoralized.

tokioyoyo 2y ago

My understanding is, anyone who resists will get crucified and lose money. Nobody wants to lose customers or money. It's funny when you talk to people with money, who completely disagree with the administration, will go and say the opposite publicly because they don't want to deal with the mob.

abustamam 2y ago

As an American born to immigrants, I love the vision of the founding fathers, but I don't understand why they are so revered by some. They were slave owners who, at the time, had some pretty radical ideas for how to run a country. Some ideas were great and stood the test of time, and some were terrible and required amendments. We can't solve today's problems by thinking like dudes from the 1700s.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
At the same time, some ideas were great but scales of economy and population ruined them. e.g. The house of represenatives should probably number over 1000 today to properly work as structured in the founding papers. But we somewhat arbitrarily capped it at 435 100 years ago. now while that's way too many people per rep, most political scientists don't really suggest that we should have 1200 reps in the House. proposals end up more around 700. some reverence may simply be patriotism. I suppose it's no different than any other kinds of celebrity style of worship. people like a role model.
- abustamam 2y ago
  That's interesting, that's a good point though. Fundamentally, patriotism is no different than other kinds of celebrity worship, but practically, more people are willing to do terrible things in the name of patriotism than they are for any A List celebrity. Can substitute patriotism with religion as well. Patriotism seems more akin to religion to me, now that I think of it. I don't know if that is good or bad.

FlyingSnake 2y ago

My thoughts exactly. I’ve lived in the USA and saw the Iowa caucus and election process up close. For a country that was the self proclaimed arbitrator of democracy all over the world, I’m shocked how fragile their own checks-and-balances system is. The lack of opposition to this complete takeover is astounding. I hope USA survives this phase and comes out stronger and more resilient to further such events.