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> Where do you draw the line between This is where individual opinion basically doesn't matter. This is where collective opinion ends up setting discourse. Th

> Where do you draw the line between This is where individual opinion basically doesn't matter. This is where collective opinion ends up setting discourse. There is a reason no one really mourned for the CEO. And a reason Luigi is seen as a hero in the vast majority of circles.

gruez 2y ago
>And a reason Luigi is seen as a hero in the vast majority of circles. source? Only 17% of americans find the killing was "acceptable", which isn't same question as "hero", but I think most would agree that an action being "acceptable" is a prerequisite to being a "hero". At best, he's anti-hero. https://www.axios.com/2024/12/17/united-healthcare-ceo-killing-poll https://www.axios.com/2024/12/17/united-healthcare-ceo-killi...
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I suspect the flaw in this poll is being willing to openly admit support would feel precarious to many generations outside seemingly Gen Z due to how other generations were raised. I think private support - the kind you can’t poll - is far far higher
  - gruez 2y ago
    >I suspect the flaw in this poll is being willing to openly admit support would feel precarious to many generations outside seemingly Gen Z due to how other generations were raised. 1. the opposite can also be true, ie. people taking anti-establilshment stances to be edgy or whatever. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-op... 2. Your argument seems to basically "17% or 41% is far lower than I observe, therefore it must be because people are cowed into hiding their actual opinions". That might be the case, but it's also possible you're in a filter bubble that's not representative of the public as a whole. For instance if you were on reddit last year you might have gotten the impression there was a universal consensus that Trump had zero support and that Mangione did nothing wrong, but know now that the former was obviously false.
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      >1. the opposite can also be true, ie. people taking anti-establilshment stances to be edgy or whatever Hence suspect. I didn't state it definitively for that reason alone. I can only infer based on things like sentiment analysis and reading volumes of comments, reports (news and otherwise) and of course, polls. It all offers very conflicting ideas of how people really feel about him, what he did, and the CEO. That all take in sum, seems to suggest there is more support than any one poll captures. That said, I understand that is all sociological qualitative analysis, therefore must admit it could be wrong. >2. Your argument seems to basically "17% or 41% is far lower than I observe, therefore it must be because people are cowed into hiding their actual opinions". That might be the case, but it's also possible you're in a filter bubble that's not representative of the public as a whole. For instance if you were on reddit last year you might have gotten the impression there was a universal consensus that Trump had zero support and that Mangione did nothing wrong, but know now that the former was obviously false. It does not, which is why I never said anything like that. See my response above. Its based on a number of factors, of which anecdotal evidence is not a factor.
      - aaomidi 2y ago
        Honestly the fact that this murder is even a thing where we can’t agree on how condemned it was is already multiple orders of magnitude higher than the median murder that happens. This is still a very useful signal if you’re thinking long term society health.
        no_wizard 2y ago
        To me it’s a sign that the system has become broken. Not yet beyond repair, but rapidly approaching such. This should have an opportunity for folks to have serious conversations about reform and making things better, but my expectation of what I think will happen vs what is happening unfortunately don’t match
        aaomidi 2y ago
        We share the same view!

gruez 2y ago

>And a reason Luigi is seen as a hero in the vast majority of circles. source? Only 17% of americans find the killing was "acceptable", which isn't same question as "hero", but I think most would agree that an action being "acceptable" is a prerequisite to being a "hero". At best, he's anti-hero. https://www.axios.com/2024/12/17/united-healthcare-ceo-killing-poll https://www.axios.com/2024/12/17/united-healthcare-ceo-killi...

no_wizard 2y ago
I suspect the flaw in this poll is being willing to openly admit support would feel precarious to many generations outside seemingly Gen Z due to how other generations were raised. I think private support - the kind you can’t poll - is far far higher
- gruez 2y ago
  >I suspect the flaw in this poll is being willing to openly admit support would feel precarious to many generations outside seemingly Gen Z due to how other generations were raised. 1. the opposite can also be true, ie. people taking anti-establilshment stances to be edgy or whatever. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-opt-in-polls-can-produce-misleading-results-especially-for-young-people-and-hispanic-adults/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/05/online-op... 2. Your argument seems to basically "17% or 41% is far lower than I observe, therefore it must be because people are cowed into hiding their actual opinions". That might be the case, but it's also possible you're in a filter bubble that's not representative of the public as a whole. For instance if you were on reddit last year you might have gotten the impression there was a universal consensus that Trump had zero support and that Mangione did nothing wrong, but know now that the former was obviously false.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    >1. the opposite can also be true, ie. people taking anti-establilshment stances to be edgy or whatever Hence suspect. I didn't state it definitively for that reason alone. I can only infer based on things like sentiment analysis and reading volumes of comments, reports (news and otherwise) and of course, polls. It all offers very conflicting ideas of how people really feel about him, what he did, and the CEO. That all take in sum, seems to suggest there is more support than any one poll captures. That said, I understand that is all sociological qualitative analysis, therefore must admit it could be wrong. >2. Your argument seems to basically "17% or 41% is far lower than I observe, therefore it must be because people are cowed into hiding their actual opinions". That might be the case, but it's also possible you're in a filter bubble that's not representative of the public as a whole. For instance if you were on reddit last year you might have gotten the impression there was a universal consensus that Trump had zero support and that Mangione did nothing wrong, but know now that the former was obviously false. It does not, which is why I never said anything like that. See my response above. Its based on a number of factors, of which anecdotal evidence is not a factor.
    - aaomidi 2y ago
      Honestly the fact that this murder is even a thing where we can’t agree on how condemned it was is already multiple orders of magnitude higher than the median murder that happens. This is still a very useful signal if you’re thinking long term society health.
      - no_wizard 2y ago
        To me it’s a sign that the system has become broken. Not yet beyond repair, but rapidly approaching such. This should have an opportunity for folks to have serious conversations about reform and making things better, but my expectation of what I think will happen vs what is happening unfortunately don’t match
        aaomidi 2y ago
        We share the same view!