7 ms·

Craigslist’s Challenger Could Be an App, or Several

44 points by ed 14y ago

sharkweek 14y ago
There are dozens of services better or at least arguably capable of being better than Craigslist, but their stranglehold on the online classifieds market has made it extremely difficult for anyone to snipe their users; I go to Craigslist because everyone else goes to Craigslist. Another problem is their lack of concern for the bottom line. Craigslist functions off of plenty of revenue, but they aren't trying to maximize it at all. You're not forced to pay for 99% of their service, nor are you inundated with ads on every page. Craigslist "got there first" and now millions of people like my dad are used to the interface, and refuse to switch.
malandrew 14y ago
Marketplace data would be best if it were fully decentralized. At a company I am doing software consulting for we've been building bits and pieces of a distributed scraper and one of the ideas we see as a possible approach to solving these data silos is the equivalent of generalized "bit torrent for API data". So long as your service does not publish the copyrightable content gathered via API data or at least does so in a way that respects the DMCA requirements, you are pretty much free any clear, since a bittorrent approach would completely absolve you from agreeing to any terms of use and the distributed approach would absolve you from a trespass to chattels lawsuit. Between those two and the Feist vs. Rural ruling, I cannot think of any defense a company could mount. Near as I can tell both Twitter and Craigslist (among many many others) are all vulnerable to this data collection vector. If this problem sounds interesting to you, shoot me an email (in my profile). I know they are hiring.
- paulgb 14y ago
  I think CL abandoned the trespass to chattels argument when PadMapper switched to 3taps. Couldn't CL file DMCA requests given the exclusivity agreement they now have with their users? I agree that marketplace data should be decentralized. I hope it works out for you.
  - dangrossman 14y ago
    Facts aren't protected by copyright, and PadMapper only distributes facts (# of bedrooms, location and price). It doesn't copy the CL post title, description or photos which would be protected. I don't think there's any copyright infringement to serve a DMCA request against, but I'm no lawyer.
- pbreit 14y ago
  Twitter and Craigslist (among many many others) are all vulnerable Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
  - malandrew 14y ago
    Why?
    - pbreit 14y ago
      Those are two of the very least vulnerable web properties. And all the evidence points to centralization being the cornerstone to their existence and outrageous success. In one breath you've put forth a relatively weak idea and made an egregiously bad evaluation of some incumbents.
      - i_s 14y ago
        What he is talking about is the potential of getting these sites' data to third parties without them having to ask for permission. What evidence suggests that this idea is weak?
      - malandrew 14y ago
        Like i_s said, we're only worried about getting data out, not writing data to. Craigslist and Twitter both have read and write monopolies of in the two sided market of classified ads and interpersonal 140-character messages, respectively. We're not trying to do anything to displace them from their write monopoly. We're coming up with a technological solution that will hopefully be like taking a cat out of a bag. Once you take it out, hopefully you can't put the cat back in. However, with enough self-interested nodes forming a swarm to extract and share the data, essentially creating a publicly accessible ToS free copy of the data, you have basically broken the read monopoly those and other web properties have. From there, it's much easier for many agents to form a federated network of writes to compete with the read monopoly.
seagreen 14y ago
One way to disrupt companies like Craigslist would be to build disseminator sites that would allow you to post to multiple places at one. So instead of the system being: post on craigslist --> data to craigslists servers --> people view it on craigslist It would look more like: Post on disseminator --> data goes to craigslist, padmapper, etc. and a public database --> people view it on craigslist, padmapper, or their favourite aggregator. If anyone's interested in similar ideas, email me! I'd love to talk about it.
- pbreit 14y ago
  There were once a variety of tools to list on eBay and all the other auctions sites. Your idea sounds about as good as that.
- qw 14y ago
  Craigslist would probably try to block those services if they became too popular.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  Most of the real estate listings are already coming through such services. They're no longer permissible under Craigslist's current TOS as you must grant CL an exclusive license to your posting.
brudgers 14y ago
Craigslist continues to succeed in part because they define their own vision of success (one which would probably not receive Series A funding) and because that vision aligns closely with the interests of those who use it (rather than Series A funders). However, its success is in no small part because it has mapped itself onto natural markets (i.e. MSA's) with a simple format that scales up to Denver and down to Dothan. It's reached critical mass. Sure there are probably enough iPhone users in Boston to create a marketplace from an app. But that's probably not the case in North Platte Nebraska. Craigslist works because it is community based, and somewhat akin to a public service. People can access Craigslist on the computers at their public library, and no app can compete with that. No app can reach the sort of critical mass to compete with classified ads 1.0, let alone with version 2.
pbreit 14y ago
Why has no upstart knocked Craigslist from its perch, despite its outdated design and failure to work nicely with others? Is there a rule that when you read the word "despite" it usually means "because of"?
justin_vanw 14y ago
What about Craigslist's model makes it necessary for it to be proprietary? Is there any reason not to build a classifieds system (or just a classifieds license) that is open and free? Sure, you can make money using that data, but only with a share-alike license that anyone using classifieds from others must also make their classifieds available for use?
- seagreen 14y ago
  One reason (playing devil's advocate here) might be to protect people's privacy. Maybe I don't like the clientele at Padmapper or Ebay for whatever reason, and I'd prefer my listings to stay on the site I posted them.

44 points by ed 14y ago

There are dozens of services better or at least arguably capable of being better than Craigslist, but their stranglehold on the online classifieds market has made it extremely difficult for anyone to snipe their users; I go to Craigslist because everyone else goes to Craigslist. Another problem is their lack of concern for the bottom line. Craigslist functions off of plenty of revenue, but they aren't trying to maximize it at all. You're not forced to pay for 99% of their service, nor are you inundated with ads on every page. Craigslist "got there first" and now millions of people like my dad are used to the interface, and refuse to switch.

malandrew 14y ago

Marketplace data would be best if it were fully decentralized. At a company I am doing software consulting for we've been building bits and pieces of a distributed scraper and one of the ideas we see as a possible approach to solving these data silos is the equivalent of generalized "bit torrent for API data". So long as your service does not publish the copyrightable content gathered via API data or at least does so in a way that respects the DMCA requirements, you are pretty much free any clear, since a bittorrent approach would completely absolve you from agreeing to any terms of use and the distributed approach would absolve you from a trespass to chattels lawsuit. Between those two and the Feist vs. Rural ruling, I cannot think of any defense a company could mount. Near as I can tell both Twitter and Craigslist (among many many others) are all vulnerable to this data collection vector. If this problem sounds interesting to you, shoot me an email (in my profile). I know they are hiring.

paulgb 14y ago
I think CL abandoned the trespass to chattels argument when PadMapper switched to 3taps. Couldn't CL file DMCA requests given the exclusivity agreement they now have with their users? I agree that marketplace data should be decentralized. I hope it works out for you.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  Facts aren't protected by copyright, and PadMapper only distributes facts (# of bedrooms, location and price). It doesn't copy the CL post title, description or photos which would be protected. I don't think there's any copyright infringement to serve a DMCA request against, but I'm no lawyer.
pbreit 14y ago
Twitter and Craigslist (among many many others) are all vulnerable Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
- malandrew 14y ago
  Why?
  - pbreit 14y ago
    Those are two of the very least vulnerable web properties. And all the evidence points to centralization being the cornerstone to their existence and outrageous success. In one breath you've put forth a relatively weak idea and made an egregiously bad evaluation of some incumbents.
    - i_s 14y ago
      What he is talking about is the potential of getting these sites' data to third parties without them having to ask for permission. What evidence suggests that this idea is weak?
    - malandrew 14y ago
      Like i_s said, we're only worried about getting data out, not writing data to. Craigslist and Twitter both have read and write monopolies of in the two sided market of classified ads and interpersonal 140-character messages, respectively. We're not trying to do anything to displace them from their write monopoly. We're coming up with a technological solution that will hopefully be like taking a cat out of a bag. Once you take it out, hopefully you can't put the cat back in. However, with enough self-interested nodes forming a swarm to extract and share the data, essentially creating a publicly accessible ToS free copy of the data, you have basically broken the read monopoly those and other web properties have. From there, it's much easier for many agents to form a federated network of writes to compete with the read monopoly.

seagreen 14y ago

One way to disrupt companies like Craigslist would be to build disseminator sites that would allow you to post to multiple places at one. So instead of the system being: post on craigslist --> data to craigslists servers --> people view it on craigslist It would look more like: Post on disseminator --> data goes to craigslist, padmapper, etc. and a public database --> people view it on craigslist, padmapper, or their favourite aggregator. If anyone's interested in similar ideas, email me! I'd love to talk about it.

pbreit 14y ago
There were once a variety of tools to list on eBay and all the other auctions sites. Your idea sounds about as good as that.
qw 14y ago
Craigslist would probably try to block those services if they became too popular.
dangrossman 14y ago
Most of the real estate listings are already coming through such services. They're no longer permissible under Craigslist's current TOS as you must grant CL an exclusive license to your posting.

brudgers 14y ago

Craigslist continues to succeed in part because they define their own vision of success (one which would probably not receive Series A funding) and because that vision aligns closely with the interests of those who use it (rather than Series A funders). However, its success is in no small part because it has mapped itself onto natural markets (i.e. MSA's) with a simple format that scales up to Denver and down to Dothan. It's reached critical mass. Sure there are probably enough iPhone users in Boston to create a marketplace from an app. But that's probably not the case in North Platte Nebraska. Craigslist works because it is community based, and somewhat akin to a public service. People can access Craigslist on the computers at their public library, and no app can compete with that. No app can reach the sort of critical mass to compete with classified ads 1.0, let alone with version 2.

pbreit 14y ago

Why has no upstart knocked Craigslist from its perch, despite its outdated design and failure to work nicely with others? Is there a rule that when you read the word "despite" it usually means "because of"?

justin_vanw 14y ago

What about Craigslist's model makes it necessary for it to be proprietary? Is there any reason not to build a classifieds system (or just a classifieds license) that is open and free? Sure, you can make money using that data, but only with a share-alike license that anyone using classifieds from others must also make their classifieds available for use?

seagreen 14y ago
One reason (playing devil's advocate here) might be to protect people's privacy. Maybe I don't like the clientele at Padmapper or Ebay for whatever reason, and I'd prefer my listings to stay on the site I posted them.