4 ms·

I wonder if there's a cultural element to it: do people support democratic processes in their families, neighborhoods, companies, etc? If not, I imagine it migh

I wonder if there's a cultural element to it: do people support democratic processes in their families, neighborhoods, companies, etc? If not, I imagine it might be hard to top-down enforce democracy.

guelo 2y ago
Support for democratic institutions and the rule of law has gone down in USA thanks to the MAGA movement. Is that cultural?
- mopenstein 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - esafak 2y ago
    No, it's not, it's a weakness of democracy, otherwise you can 'democratically' enable any act, including aborting democracy. There have to be guardrails.
    - mopenstein 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - esafak 2y ago
        Yes, like sustaining democracy. I'm not a moral relativist, and don't condone allowing democracy to be wielded against itself. Nor would I tell the truth to an axe-wielding murderer asking me for directions, pace Kant. There is no grand philosophical paradox here; you just have to apply some commonsense. Would you be okay living in a democracy whose majority voted to harm you?
        mopenstein 2y ago
        [flagged]
        esafak 2y ago
        Taxation is not theft, it is an obligation of living in a civilized society. Without a government funded by taxes, your country won't even be long for this world. Another country that has its act together will take over yours and you'll be having this philosophical debate from the comfort of your new country.
        mopenstein 2y ago
        I'm not trying to debate the merits of various government. We're just discussing definitions. It you take my property via threat of violence (coercion), that is thievery. School children understand this. So I'm sure you do as well. Taxes aren't voluntary and if you do not pay them, you will be jailed. If you resist being jailed, you will be violently detained. If you respond with violence in kind, you will be killed. I don't care if you think that the ends justify the means. We're just discussing definitions.
        guelo 2y ago
        property doesn't even exist without government
        mopenstein 2y ago
        This can't be a real comment? Maybe bad AI?
        skissane 2y ago
        > It you take my property via threat of violence (coercion), that is thievery. School children understand this. So I'm sure you do as well. Taxes aren't voluntary and if you do not pay them, you will be jailed. If your landlord demands you pay your rent, is that thievery? Because that’s essentially what tax is I own a house. I bought it off someone else who bought it off someone else who… go back 40-50 years ago, a property developer bought a farm and subdivided it… and the farmer bought it from another farmer who bought it from another farmer… and it all goes back to this massive farm which was subdivided into smaller farms… and that massive farm was originally a government land grant… and before that the government owned it… and the government got it by stealing the land from the indigenous people The government land grant was made subject to the condition that the recipient paid taxes. And since you can’t give better title than you have, the same condition passes on to all subsequent purchasers. If the government has no right to my taxes, then I have no right to my house If taxation is theft, then property is too. But if property is theft, then calling taxation “theft” is like a small time crook complaining a bigger crook robbed them
    - rayiner 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - esafak 2y ago
        I don't think so; democracy can mean many things. I don't live in, or want to live in a direct democracy, if that's what you're thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - guelo 2y ago
    Democracy only works if there is a shared belief in things like upholding the rule of law, respecting the separation of powers, not using government power for political purposes, etc. Without those shared beliefs democracy can fall apart quickly. After all, Hitler was elected democratically.
    - mopenstein 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - rayiner 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - jimkleiber 2y ago
        Where did they call the constitution racist?
skissane 2y ago
> I wonder if there's a cultural element to it: do people support democratic processes in their families, neighborhoods, companies, etc? I don’t think that’s right - although some on the left have advocated “industrial democracy” or “workplace democracy”, it has by and large failed to take off - many democratic countries it doesn’t really exist (beyond rare exceptions), and even those which have some semblance of it (e.g. works councils in the EU) it is in practice rather toothless, comparable to the powerless “advisory” legislatures established by some Middle Eastern monarchies Families don’t function democratically-the parents negotiate things between themselves and the children don’t really have a choice in it until they get old enough to leave the family home and fend for themselves. My neighbourhood isn’t a democracy - yes we have an elected local government but it covers a much larger population and territory than just our neighbourhood. Even if one’s neighbourhood has something like a “homeowners association”, that’s usually timocratic (government by property owners) not democratic (government by the people) since renters don’t get to vote, adult dependents of homeowners don’t get to vote, a couple may jointly own a home but they get only one vote not two, some wealthy person owns five homes so they get five votes, etc (and sometimes even weighted voting, so rather than one property one vote, more expensive properties may give you more votes than cheaper ones)
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  While I agree that many organizations, families, and communities don't have strict direct, one-person-one-vote democracies, I do think countries that have more democratic governance tend to have behaviors that are more involved and participatory and not strictly top-down command-and-control hierarchies. For example: > Families don’t function democratically-the parents negotiate things between themselves and the children don’t really have a choice in it until they get old enough to leave the family home and fend for themselves. Not all families operate this way. If a family is choosing where to go eat dinner, sometimes the father (or mother) always makes a decision and no one else gets to choose. Sometimes the father and mother negotiate. Sometimes the kids are the ones who almost always make the decision. Sometimes the parents consult the kids and have a group discussion and decision. Sometimes there's actually a vote amongst all family members and majority rules. I believe a similar pattern happens in communities. Maybe a little less so in companies, as they tend to be the most top-down structures I think in even the most democratic societies, and yet even there, I think there are culturally varying levels of involvement in the decision making process.
rayiner 2y ago
There's definitely a cultural element to it! Many of my family members--college educated people from Bangladesh, many of them living for decades in Canada and Australia--have been celebrating the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Bangladesh. The result of that was replacing a somewhat authoritarian, but legitimately elected and quite popular,[1] government with a military-backed government nobody elected,[2]. Democracy doesn't come from reading books, it starts with what parents say to their small children. I'm a Bangladeshi married to a founding stock American. My wife was steeped in democracy from the beginning. As a kid, she attended mainline Protestant churches run by elected members of the congregation, and her dad participated in local government and civic organizations. This is so different from the relationship Bangladeshis have with their communities. [1] About 70% approval according to one western organization's polling from 2023: https://www.cfr.org/blog/new-bangladesh-survey-hasina-remains-popular-opposition-support-and-public-discontent-are https://www.cfr.org/blog/new-bangladesh-survey-hasina-remain.... [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/02/05/bangladesh-interim-government-protests-reform-hasina/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/02/05/bangladesh-interim-gove...
- Perfudital 2y ago
  [flagged]

guelo 2y ago

Support for democratic institutions and the rule of law has gone down in USA thanks to the MAGA movement. Is that cultural?

mopenstein 2y ago
[flagged]
- esafak 2y ago
  No, it's not, it's a weakness of democracy, otherwise you can 'democratically' enable any act, including aborting democracy. There have to be guardrails.
  - mopenstein 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - esafak 2y ago
      Yes, like sustaining democracy. I'm not a moral relativist, and don't condone allowing democracy to be wielded against itself. Nor would I tell the truth to an axe-wielding murderer asking me for directions, pace Kant. There is no grand philosophical paradox here; you just have to apply some commonsense. Would you be okay living in a democracy whose majority voted to harm you?
      - mopenstein 2y ago
        [flagged]
        esafak 2y ago
        Taxation is not theft, it is an obligation of living in a civilized society. Without a government funded by taxes, your country won't even be long for this world. Another country that has its act together will take over yours and you'll be having this philosophical debate from the comfort of your new country.
        mopenstein 2y ago
        I'm not trying to debate the merits of various government. We're just discussing definitions. It you take my property via threat of violence (coercion), that is thievery. School children understand this. So I'm sure you do as well. Taxes aren't voluntary and if you do not pay them, you will be jailed. If you resist being jailed, you will be violently detained. If you respond with violence in kind, you will be killed. I don't care if you think that the ends justify the means. We're just discussing definitions.
        guelo 2y ago
        property doesn't even exist without government
        mopenstein 2y ago
        This can't be a real comment? Maybe bad AI?
        skissane 2y ago
        > It you take my property via threat of violence (coercion), that is thievery. School children understand this. So I'm sure you do as well. Taxes aren't voluntary and if you do not pay them, you will be jailed. If your landlord demands you pay your rent, is that thievery? Because that’s essentially what tax is I own a house. I bought it off someone else who bought it off someone else who… go back 40-50 years ago, a property developer bought a farm and subdivided it… and the farmer bought it from another farmer who bought it from another farmer… and it all goes back to this massive farm which was subdivided into smaller farms… and that massive farm was originally a government land grant… and before that the government owned it… and the government got it by stealing the land from the indigenous people The government land grant was made subject to the condition that the recipient paid taxes. And since you can’t give better title than you have, the same condition passes on to all subsequent purchasers. If the government has no right to my taxes, then I have no right to my house If taxation is theft, then property is too. But if property is theft, then calling taxation “theft” is like a small time crook complaining a bigger crook robbed them
  - rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - esafak 2y ago
      I don't think so; democracy can mean many things. I don't live in, or want to live in a direct democracy, if that's what you're thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- guelo 2y ago
  Democracy only works if there is a shared belief in things like upholding the rule of law, respecting the separation of powers, not using government power for political purposes, etc. Without those shared beliefs democracy can fall apart quickly. After all, Hitler was elected democratically.
  - mopenstein 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jimkleiber 2y ago
      Where did they call the constitution racist?

skissane 2y ago

> I wonder if there's a cultural element to it: do people support democratic processes in their families, neighborhoods, companies, etc? I don’t think that’s right - although some on the left have advocated “industrial democracy” or “workplace democracy”, it has by and large failed to take off - many democratic countries it doesn’t really exist (beyond rare exceptions), and even those which have some semblance of it (e.g. works councils in the EU) it is in practice rather toothless, comparable to the powerless “advisory” legislatures established by some Middle Eastern monarchies Families don’t function democratically-the parents negotiate things between themselves and the children don’t really have a choice in it until they get old enough to leave the family home and fend for themselves. My neighbourhood isn’t a democracy - yes we have an elected local government but it covers a much larger population and territory than just our neighbourhood. Even if one’s neighbourhood has something like a “homeowners association”, that’s usually timocratic (government by property owners) not democratic (government by the people) since renters don’t get to vote, adult dependents of homeowners don’t get to vote, a couple may jointly own a home but they get only one vote not two, some wealthy person owns five homes so they get five votes, etc (and sometimes even weighted voting, so rather than one property one vote, more expensive properties may give you more votes than cheaper ones)

jimkleiber 2y ago
While I agree that many organizations, families, and communities don't have strict direct, one-person-one-vote democracies, I do think countries that have more democratic governance tend to have behaviors that are more involved and participatory and not strictly top-down command-and-control hierarchies. For example: > Families don’t function democratically-the parents negotiate things between themselves and the children don’t really have a choice in it until they get old enough to leave the family home and fend for themselves. Not all families operate this way. If a family is choosing where to go eat dinner, sometimes the father (or mother) always makes a decision and no one else gets to choose. Sometimes the father and mother negotiate. Sometimes the kids are the ones who almost always make the decision. Sometimes the parents consult the kids and have a group discussion and decision. Sometimes there's actually a vote amongst all family members and majority rules. I believe a similar pattern happens in communities. Maybe a little less so in companies, as they tend to be the most top-down structures I think in even the most democratic societies, and yet even there, I think there are culturally varying levels of involvement in the decision making process.

rayiner 2y ago

There's definitely a cultural element to it! Many of my family members--college educated people from Bangladesh, many of them living for decades in Canada and Australia--have been celebrating the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Bangladesh. The result of that was replacing a somewhat authoritarian, but legitimately elected and quite popular,[1] government with a military-backed government nobody elected,[2]. Democracy doesn't come from reading books, it starts with what parents say to their small children. I'm a Bangladeshi married to a founding stock American. My wife was steeped in democracy from the beginning. As a kid, she attended mainline Protestant churches run by elected members of the congregation, and her dad participated in local government and civic organizations. This is so different from the relationship Bangladeshis have with their communities. [1] About 70% approval according to one western organization's polling from 2023: https://www.cfr.org/blog/new-bangladesh-survey-hasina-remains-popular-opposition-support-and-public-discontent-are https://www.cfr.org/blog/new-bangladesh-survey-hasina-remain.... [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/02/05/bangladesh-interim-government-protests-reform-hasina/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/02/05/bangladesh-interim-gove...

Perfudital 2y ago
[flagged]