2 ms·

You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions,

You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions, but the people served by the institutions. Try reading the constitutions of some of these dysfunctional places sometime--there's nothing wrong with the words on the paper. So your point about whether "you are lucky enough to get such a stable system" is inaccurate. It's not luck. People created those systems. You can even see how that processed happened, deliberately, in recent history in places like Singapore.

skybrian 2y ago
Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?
jyounker 2y ago
It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8
marojejian 2y ago
What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?
darksaints 2y ago
The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.
- kortilla 2y ago
  > and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. Where is there evidence of this?
  - darksaints 2y ago
    Everywhere if you're looking. Of course that's just making America "great" again if you're brainwashed into the cult.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      A dissolution is a pretty specific major movement by many states. Where is the evidence that there is anything like this
- skissane 2y ago
  > France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. I don’t think that is really fair on France - many of those failures were due to defeats in war - for example, the Third Republic didn’t “fail”, it was conquered by Nazi Germany - and when it was liberated, the French decided to take the opportunity to rewrite their constitution, but I think that was a choice rather than something they were forced into. And the Fifth Republic was engineered by de Gaulle given the opportunity of the 1958 coup attempt. If de Gaulle had unexpectedly died of a heart attack in 1957, the Fourth Republic might have survived. Probably the 1958 coup attempt would still have occurred even absent de Gaulle - but neither its success nor failure would have necessitated a rewrite of the constitution (as opposed to maybe just some tweaks), although certainly it could have resulted in one. Even de Gaulle didn’t have to rewrite the constitution, he decided he wanted to and was handed the opportunity to get what he wanted, but maybe in some alternative timeline he didn’t feel as strongly about that and so the constitutional rewrite never happened Why didn’t the American Civil War result in a rewrite of the US constitution? Probably because the Union had a clear and convincing victory. If the Union had lost, or if the war had turned into a stalemate, much greater odds the US constitution would not have survived it - a less-defeated Confederacy might have negotiated reintegration into the Union subject to a constitutional rewrite; if the Confederacy had won and retained its independence, the Union might well have decided to write a new constitution in response.
chgs 2y ago
Singapore didn’t have any democracy for decades. You can’t build a nation and a democracy at the same time. You need the benevolent dictator, then the stability, then the slow introduction of government by the people over decades.

skybrian 2y ago

Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?

jyounker 2y ago

It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8

marojejian 2y ago

What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?

darksaints 2y ago

The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.

kortilla 2y ago
> and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. Where is there evidence of this?
- darksaints 2y ago
  Everywhere if you're looking. Of course that's just making America "great" again if you're brainwashed into the cult.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    A dissolution is a pretty specific major movement by many states. Where is the evidence that there is anything like this
skissane 2y ago
> France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. I don’t think that is really fair on France - many of those failures were due to defeats in war - for example, the Third Republic didn’t “fail”, it was conquered by Nazi Germany - and when it was liberated, the French decided to take the opportunity to rewrite their constitution, but I think that was a choice rather than something they were forced into. And the Fifth Republic was engineered by de Gaulle given the opportunity of the 1958 coup attempt. If de Gaulle had unexpectedly died of a heart attack in 1957, the Fourth Republic might have survived. Probably the 1958 coup attempt would still have occurred even absent de Gaulle - but neither its success nor failure would have necessitated a rewrite of the constitution (as opposed to maybe just some tweaks), although certainly it could have resulted in one. Even de Gaulle didn’t have to rewrite the constitution, he decided he wanted to and was handed the opportunity to get what he wanted, but maybe in some alternative timeline he didn’t feel as strongly about that and so the constitutional rewrite never happened Why didn’t the American Civil War result in a rewrite of the US constitution? Probably because the Union had a clear and convincing victory. If the Union had lost, or if the war had turned into a stalemate, much greater odds the US constitution would not have survived it - a less-defeated Confederacy might have negotiated reintegration into the Union subject to a constitutional rewrite; if the Confederacy had won and retained its independence, the Union might well have decided to write a new constitution in response.

chgs 2y ago

Singapore didn’t have any democracy for decades. You can’t build a nation and a democracy at the same time. You need the benevolent dictator, then the stability, then the slow introduction of government by the people over decades.