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Spies don't get "vanished," at least not historically. They're caught, imprisoned and tried in huge public media-heavy trials. The USSR even did huge public tri

Spies don't get "vanished," at least not historically. They're caught, imprisoned and tried in huge public media-heavy trials. The USSR even did huge public trials for American spies, because there's no incentive to forgo the nationalist boost to public opinion when collaborators would be aware of the disappearance either way.

bigfatkitten 2y ago
Media-heavy espionage cases are the exception, not the norm. "Diplomats" routinely get declared persona non grata and just put on the next plane home. Neither the U.S. nor the other country wants to make a fuss.
- deleted 2y ago
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- aerostable_slug 2y ago
  That's generally because those diplomats can't be tried for their activities in the host nation, and also because said diplomats are running spies, not stealing secrets themselves. In other words, they aren't the traitors, their agents are. And those agents are the ones who get tried in the media circuses we're all so familiar with.
  - bigfatkitten 2y ago
    Media circus doesn't appear until the trial, which hasn't happened in this matter yet either. The feds execute warrants every day without making the news.
tptacek 2y ago
Being removed from your employer's web pages isn't "being vanished"; we don't even know if Wang is in custody. All I'm saying is, in the fact pattern where this is another unhinged ICE raid, IU doesn't strike a tenured faculty member in an endowed chair position from all their websites. I've got nothing past that. Later From the TPM follow-up link downthread: faculty at IU were notified more than a week before the raid that he'd been placed on leave, and it was at that point Wang's pages were zapped from the IU sites.
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- whatshisface 2y ago
  It's also pretty clear that this isn't matching the pattern of an espionage case, since they gave everyone more than a week of advance notice that something was to happen.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Who knows? The "advanced notice" (I'm assuming here you're referring to IU's decision to place him on leave, remove him from their web pages, and notify his colleagues, more than week before the raid) makes this look less like some extrajudicial ICE-type thing, not more. But nobody knows anything right now! We know he has legal representation, from the story, and competent legal representation is going to tell you to shut the absolute hell up in a situation like this, so there's not much to learn from the fact that Goodin can't raise him for a quote. My only take here (besides the certainty that the shadowy hand of the FISA FISC court is not behind all this) is that it doesn't look like another ICE raid.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      Sure, I mean, the FBI's involvement makes it not look like another department's case. I am saying that on top of that, an arrest of any kind would (normally) go differently than whatever happened to this professor. The idea that the FBI would call the employer of a suspected spy, inform them that something was going to happen, that all of his colleagues would be informed, and then after a week they'd search his home, stands out as not a full explanation.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        > The idea that the FBI would call the employer of a suspected spy, inform them that something was going to happen, that all of his colleagues would be informed, and then after a week they'd search his home, stands out as not a full explanation. I don't think anyone, least of all OP, is suggesting this is what happened. Everything is rank speculation at this point, but if I were going to speculate I'd speculate that Wang suddenly left the country of his own volition and the employer began investigating his disappearance and stumbled on things that led to them calling in the FBI. That's still purely speculation, but it would account for the sequence of events and the manner of investigation way better than any ideas about him being "vanished" by the US government.
TechDebtDevin 2y ago
Maybe the Chinese disapprared him brcause his cover was blown :/ The Chinese are alleged to havr their own secret police in the United States keeping tabs on important citizens.. An expert in cryptography seems like someone theyd be keeping tabs on if they really do this. Just spit balling here and dont mean to accuse the guy of anything.
nurettin 2y ago
A lot of "spies" seem to be falling off the window/balcony /stairs lately.
lolinder 2y ago
> Spies don't get "vanished," at least not historically. They're caught, imprisoned and tried Or they vanish themselves before they're caught and are never heard from again because they got away. We don't know that anyone has Wang in custody. He was scrubbed from the University computer systems weeks before the FBI raided his house, which suggests that whatever happened started then and built up to this recent raid which finally drew media attention.
that_guy_iain 2y ago
They all get “vanished” before the media-heavy trials. You normally find out at the end not when they’ve been arrested.
gdilla 2y ago
what if your "employer" vanishes you?
genocidicbunny 2y ago
Some spies in the USSR did just get vanished, especially low-level domestic spies. Yeah the American dude running around and being caught for spying would probably get the media circus, but the mid-level manager he gave some cigarettes and money to in exchange for information about the production levels at the factory the manager worked to might instead find himself quietly arrested one evening, tried and sent off to the gulag by the early hours of the morning. You didn't really want or need to make a spectacle of those kinds of spies, since everyone already sort of had an idea of what happened.
salynchnew 2y ago
Being American right now makes this whole episode feel like a 1950s McCarthyism/Qian Xuesen-type situation. Maybe another xenophobic red scare-type U.S. gov't overreaction will inadvertently export top talent to China a second time.

bigfatkitten 2y ago

Media-heavy espionage cases are the exception, not the norm. "Diplomats" routinely get declared persona non grata and just put on the next plane home. Neither the U.S. nor the other country wants to make a fuss.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
aerostable_slug 2y ago
That's generally because those diplomats can't be tried for their activities in the host nation, and also because said diplomats are running spies, not stealing secrets themselves. In other words, they aren't the traitors, their agents are. And those agents are the ones who get tried in the media circuses we're all so familiar with.
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  Media circus doesn't appear until the trial, which hasn't happened in this matter yet either. The feds execute warrants every day without making the news.

tptacek 2y ago

Being removed from your employer's web pages isn't "being vanished"; we don't even know if Wang is in custody. All I'm saying is, in the fact pattern where this is another unhinged ICE raid, IU doesn't strike a tenured faculty member in an endowed chair position from all their websites. I've got nothing past that. Later From the TPM follow-up link downthread: faculty at IU were notified more than a week before the raid that he'd been placed on leave, and it was at that point Wang's pages were zapped from the IU sites.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whatshisface 2y ago
It's also pretty clear that this isn't matching the pattern of an espionage case, since they gave everyone more than a week of advance notice that something was to happen.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Who knows? The "advanced notice" (I'm assuming here you're referring to IU's decision to place him on leave, remove him from their web pages, and notify his colleagues, more than week before the raid) makes this look less like some extrajudicial ICE-type thing, not more. But nobody knows anything right now! We know he has legal representation, from the story, and competent legal representation is going to tell you to shut the absolute hell up in a situation like this, so there's not much to learn from the fact that Goodin can't raise him for a quote. My only take here (besides the certainty that the shadowy hand of the FISA FISC court is not behind all this) is that it doesn't look like another ICE raid.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    Sure, I mean, the FBI's involvement makes it not look like another department's case. I am saying that on top of that, an arrest of any kind would (normally) go differently than whatever happened to this professor. The idea that the FBI would call the employer of a suspected spy, inform them that something was going to happen, that all of his colleagues would be informed, and then after a week they'd search his home, stands out as not a full explanation.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      > The idea that the FBI would call the employer of a suspected spy, inform them that something was going to happen, that all of his colleagues would be informed, and then after a week they'd search his home, stands out as not a full explanation. I don't think anyone, least of all OP, is suggesting this is what happened. Everything is rank speculation at this point, but if I were going to speculate I'd speculate that Wang suddenly left the country of his own volition and the employer began investigating his disappearance and stumbled on things that led to them calling in the FBI. That's still purely speculation, but it would account for the sequence of events and the manner of investigation way better than any ideas about him being "vanished" by the US government.

TechDebtDevin 2y ago

Maybe the Chinese disapprared him brcause his cover was blown :/ The Chinese are alleged to havr their own secret police in the United States keeping tabs on important citizens.. An expert in cryptography seems like someone theyd be keeping tabs on if they really do this. Just spit balling here and dont mean to accuse the guy of anything.

nurettin 2y ago

A lot of "spies" seem to be falling off the window/balcony /stairs lately.

lolinder 2y ago

> Spies don't get "vanished," at least not historically. They're caught, imprisoned and tried Or they vanish themselves before they're caught and are never heard from again because they got away. We don't know that anyone has Wang in custody. He was scrubbed from the University computer systems weeks before the FBI raided his house, which suggests that whatever happened started then and built up to this recent raid which finally drew media attention.

that_guy_iain 2y ago

They all get “vanished” before the media-heavy trials. You normally find out at the end not when they’ve been arrested.

gdilla 2y ago

what if your "employer" vanishes you?

genocidicbunny 2y ago

Some spies in the USSR did just get vanished, especially low-level domestic spies. Yeah the American dude running around and being caught for spying would probably get the media circus, but the mid-level manager he gave some cigarettes and money to in exchange for information about the production levels at the factory the manager worked to might instead find himself quietly arrested one evening, tried and sent off to the gulag by the early hours of the morning. You didn't really want or need to make a spectacle of those kinds of spies, since everyone already sort of had an idea of what happened.

salynchnew 2y ago

Being American right now makes this whole episode feel like a 1950s McCarthyism/Qian Xuesen-type situation. Maybe another xenophobic red scare-type U.S. gov't overreaction will inadvertently export top talent to China a second time.