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This Left vs Right - us vs them - does not serve us well. It seems to me that what the world needs is a mix of conservative and progressive ideas. Instead of c

This Left vs Right - us vs them - does not serve us well. It seems to me that what the world needs is a mix of conservative and progressive ideas. Instead of calling each other names or label each other, we could also work together. In the end we all have a the same goal: Preventing harm. We just happen to have different ideas about how to go about it.

jmyeet 2y ago
This kind of bothsidesing is either hopelessly naive, intellectually lazy or a deliberate attempt to minimize right-wing violence by falsely claiming the "left" is just as bad. What conservative ideas do we "need" exactly? there is no compromising with fascism. We are quite literally black-bagging people and unlawfully deporting them and/or putting them in camps, some in our country, some in third-party nations like El Salvador. What's the compromise here? Only black-bag half as many people? Also, in the US in particular, there is functionally no "left". Everyone is a neoliberal and we have two parties: the center-right Democrats and the far-right Republicans who both defend American imperialism and domestic and foreign capitalist exploitation, who only differ on inconsequential "social" issues. > In the end we all have a the same goal No, we don't. The goal of our political establishment is to further concentrate wealth in the hands of the already ultra-wealthy and further impoverish the working class. You still enjoy a lot of benefits that the left fought for and the right bitterly opposed: weekends, a 40 hour working week, vacations, job safety, Social Security, Medicare and so on. The right wants to literally do away with all of those things. The core organizing principle of the American right is cruelty. It's exacting revenge on their perceived enemies, be they immigrants, trans people, queer people, women or black and brown people.
- linuxhansl 2y ago
  No, no, and no. This is exactly the problem! You define conservative ideas as fascism in one swoop and now "they" are all evil, all discussion stops, and you fall in exactly the trap you accuse the other "side" of. We do not need sides. There is no "The Right" as much as there is no "The Left". Of course we need to not allow fascism (and the populist MAGA nonsense), I have stated nothing to contrary. For the record I tend to be strongly liberal progressive (see my various comments, although I keep politics on HN to a minimum). But I also realize that only liberal progressive ideas are not enough, just handouts do not work, people want jobs through which they can support themselves, we need a working economy, reduce debt, etc, etc. So, again, I wish we would come together instead of drifting more and more into extremes. If we did come together, we would not have a problem with fascism in the first place. We would not be so easily divide by populists smoke bombs like trans-athletes or alleged violent immigrants. This is not "hopelessly naive" but intensely practical and necessary.
  - ZeroTalent 2y ago
    Do you not consider people who voted for a proto-fascist president, if not evil, at least responsible for his wrongdoings? Do you really think we can take the middle road here? Like the two-state solution with Israel? I don't. This is the paradox of tolerance. The fascists will eat everyone alive if they are allowed to freely express their "opinions" and implement them on a societal scale.
    - linuxhansl 2y ago
      Not sure how else I can phrase it... We have to stay away from false equivalencies. I am not, and was not, saying that we should tolerate fascism! We should not, absolutely not, and what is happening in this country right now is a travesty. I'll try to make it simple: Fascism = very bad, voting for a fascist = very bad, only conservative ideas = not good enough, only progressive ideas = not good enough. Moderate conservatives and liberals not coming together is what causes fascism in the first place.
      - ZeroTalent 2y ago
        That's an interesting take, and it sounds right. I wonder what the root causes are. Lack of civil education, community strength, and things like these probably play a big part in that division. Educated, clever, happy, balanced people would not let someone like Trump (grab em by the pussy, etc) come even an inch to the any governing body.
        linuxhansl 2y ago
        Late reply... I think lack of education is part of it. The other part is that we are bombarded with content designed to keep us glued to the screen, and the best to do that is to feed us stuff we either agree with or that causes us to feel self-righteous indignation :)

jmyeet 2y ago

This kind of bothsidesing is either hopelessly naive, intellectually lazy or a deliberate attempt to minimize right-wing violence by falsely claiming the "left" is just as bad. What conservative ideas do we "need" exactly? there is no compromising with fascism. We are quite literally black-bagging people and unlawfully deporting them and/or putting them in camps, some in our country, some in third-party nations like El Salvador. What's the compromise here? Only black-bag half as many people? Also, in the US in particular, there is functionally no "left". Everyone is a neoliberal and we have two parties: the center-right Democrats and the far-right Republicans who both defend American imperialism and domestic and foreign capitalist exploitation, who only differ on inconsequential "social" issues. > In the end we all have a the same goal No, we don't. The goal of our political establishment is to further concentrate wealth in the hands of the already ultra-wealthy and further impoverish the working class. You still enjoy a lot of benefits that the left fought for and the right bitterly opposed: weekends, a 40 hour working week, vacations, job safety, Social Security, Medicare and so on. The right wants to literally do away with all of those things. The core organizing principle of the American right is cruelty. It's exacting revenge on their perceived enemies, be they immigrants, trans people, queer people, women or black and brown people.

linuxhansl 2y ago
No, no, and no. This is exactly the problem! You define conservative ideas as fascism in one swoop and now "they" are all evil, all discussion stops, and you fall in exactly the trap you accuse the other "side" of. We do not need sides. There is no "The Right" as much as there is no "The Left". Of course we need to not allow fascism (and the populist MAGA nonsense), I have stated nothing to contrary. For the record I tend to be strongly liberal progressive (see my various comments, although I keep politics on HN to a minimum). But I also realize that only liberal progressive ideas are not enough, just handouts do not work, people want jobs through which they can support themselves, we need a working economy, reduce debt, etc, etc. So, again, I wish we would come together instead of drifting more and more into extremes. If we did come together, we would not have a problem with fascism in the first place. We would not be so easily divide by populists smoke bombs like trans-athletes or alleged violent immigrants. This is not "hopelessly naive" but intensely practical and necessary.
- ZeroTalent 2y ago
  Do you not consider people who voted for a proto-fascist president, if not evil, at least responsible for his wrongdoings? Do you really think we can take the middle road here? Like the two-state solution with Israel? I don't. This is the paradox of tolerance. The fascists will eat everyone alive if they are allowed to freely express their "opinions" and implement them on a societal scale.
  - linuxhansl 2y ago
    Not sure how else I can phrase it... We have to stay away from false equivalencies. I am not, and was not, saying that we should tolerate fascism! We should not, absolutely not, and what is happening in this country right now is a travesty. I'll try to make it simple: Fascism = very bad, voting for a fascist = very bad, only conservative ideas = not good enough, only progressive ideas = not good enough. Moderate conservatives and liberals not coming together is what causes fascism in the first place.
    - ZeroTalent 2y ago
      That's an interesting take, and it sounds right. I wonder what the root causes are. Lack of civil education, community strength, and things like these probably play a big part in that division. Educated, clever, happy, balanced people would not let someone like Trump (grab em by the pussy, etc) come even an inch to the any governing body.
      - linuxhansl 2y ago
        Late reply... I think lack of education is part of it. The other part is that we are bombarded with content designed to keep us glued to the screen, and the best to do that is to feed us stuff we either agree with or that causes us to feel self-righteous indignation :)