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To me the core lesson here is the incredible value of stable political and economic institutions. (even after adjusting for the incredible injustice of all the

To me the core lesson here is the incredible value of stable political and economic institutions. (even after adjusting for the incredible injustice of all the external actors, and nature itself). If you are lucky enough to get such a stable system, it's a high priority to defend it. Don't weaken it for marginal improvements for your cause.

TMWNN 2y ago
Relevant: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
- Svip 2y ago
  That Reddit discussion is from 9 years ago. There is a new constitution _possibly_ coming up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_re...
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    A presidential system with FPTP in a historically unstable country seems ripe for dictatorial abuse. Turkey is much more stable than Haiti, but Erdogan managed to build an authoritarian system centered around him anyway, and a constitutional change towards presidential system was a crucial step. Presidential system might work in France and the US, but especially in the US the near future of it is still uncertain. Trying it in countries that barely hold together doesn't seem wise.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > Presidential system might work in France France has a semipresidential system, not a presidential system - it has both a President directly elected by the voters, and a Prime Minister accountable to the legislature, with the two having a (somewhat complicated and uneasy) division of powers - essentially, the President controls foreign relations and the military, the Prime Minister controls most domestic policies. It works reasonably well when both President and Prime Minister are from the same party, it works with more acrimony when they are from opposed parties (cohabitation), the recent political upheavals in France have led more and more to question if it is still the right system, or whether France should return to the parliamentary system of its Third and Fourth republics - but, even at its worst, I think it still works better than the presidential system used by the US and much of Latin America. The presidential system concentrates too much power in a single individual, who is difficult to hold accountable, leading to the problem of strongmen (caudillos) which have been a plague upon Latin American history-and maybe now with Trump the US is starting to move in the same direction
hybrid_study 2y ago
that was more or less Jared Diamond's take in his book "Collapse". Both countries have struggled historically but the DR made better decisions when it came to environment conservation, which can be seen as a product of having more stable institutions
rayiner 2y ago
You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions, but the people served by the institutions. Try reading the constitutions of some of these dysfunctional places sometime--there's nothing wrong with the words on the paper. So your point about whether "you are lucky enough to get such a stable system" is inaccurate. It's not luck. People created those systems. You can even see how that processed happened, deliberately, in recent history in places like Singapore.
- skybrian 2y ago
  Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?
- jyounker 2y ago
  It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8
- marojejian 2y ago
  What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?
- darksaints 2y ago
  The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.
H8crilA 2y ago
This is called conservatism. It also shows that Trump and his court are not conservatives at all.

TMWNN 2y ago

Relevant: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>

Svip 2y ago
That Reddit discussion is from 9 years ago. There is a new constitution _possibly_ coming up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_re...
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  A presidential system with FPTP in a historically unstable country seems ripe for dictatorial abuse. Turkey is much more stable than Haiti, but Erdogan managed to build an authoritarian system centered around him anyway, and a constitutional change towards presidential system was a crucial step. Presidential system might work in France and the US, but especially in the US the near future of it is still uncertain. Trying it in countries that barely hold together doesn't seem wise.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > Presidential system might work in France France has a semipresidential system, not a presidential system - it has both a President directly elected by the voters, and a Prime Minister accountable to the legislature, with the two having a (somewhat complicated and uneasy) division of powers - essentially, the President controls foreign relations and the military, the Prime Minister controls most domestic policies. It works reasonably well when both President and Prime Minister are from the same party, it works with more acrimony when they are from opposed parties (cohabitation), the recent political upheavals in France have led more and more to question if it is still the right system, or whether France should return to the parliamentary system of its Third and Fourth republics - but, even at its worst, I think it still works better than the presidential system used by the US and much of Latin America. The presidential system concentrates too much power in a single individual, who is difficult to hold accountable, leading to the problem of strongmen (caudillos) which have been a plague upon Latin American history-and maybe now with Trump the US is starting to move in the same direction

hybrid_study 2y ago

that was more or less Jared Diamond's take in his book "Collapse". Both countries have struggled historically but the DR made better decisions when it came to environment conservation, which can be seen as a product of having more stable institutions

rayiner 2y ago

You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions, but the people served by the institutions. Try reading the constitutions of some of these dysfunctional places sometime--there's nothing wrong with the words on the paper. So your point about whether "you are lucky enough to get such a stable system" is inaccurate. It's not luck. People created those systems. You can even see how that processed happened, deliberately, in recent history in places like Singapore.

skybrian 2y ago
Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?
jyounker 2y ago
It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8
marojejian 2y ago
What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?
darksaints 2y ago
The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.

H8crilA 2y ago

This is called conservatism. It also shows that Trump and his court are not conservatives at all.