8 ms·

One island, two worlds (Haiti vs. Dominican Republic)

55 points by marojejian 2y ago

marojejian 2y ago
No paywall: https://archive.is/DkjIV https://archive.is/DkjIV
marojejian 2y ago
To me the core lesson here is the incredible value of stable political and economic institutions. (even after adjusting for the incredible injustice of all the external actors, and nature itself). If you are lucky enough to get such a stable system, it's a high priority to defend it. Don't weaken it for marginal improvements for your cause.
- TMWNN 2y ago
  Relevant: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
  - Svip 2y ago
    That Reddit discussion is from 9 years ago. There is a new constitution _possibly_ coming up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_re...
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      A presidential system with FPTP in a historically unstable country seems ripe for dictatorial abuse. Turkey is much more stable than Haiti, but Erdogan managed to build an authoritarian system centered around him anyway, and a constitutional change towards presidential system was a crucial step. Presidential system might work in France and the US, but especially in the US the near future of it is still uncertain. Trying it in countries that barely hold together doesn't seem wise.
      - skissane 2y ago
        > Presidential system might work in France France has a semipresidential system, not a presidential system - it has both a President directly elected by the voters, and a Prime Minister accountable to the legislature, with the two having a (somewhat complicated and uneasy) division of powers - essentially, the President controls foreign relations and the military, the Prime Minister controls most domestic policies. It works reasonably well when both President and Prime Minister are from the same party, it works with more acrimony when they are from opposed parties (cohabitation), the recent political upheavals in France have led more and more to question if it is still the right system, or whether France should return to the parliamentary system of its Third and Fourth republics - but, even at its worst, I think it still works better than the presidential system used by the US and much of Latin America. The presidential system concentrates too much power in a single individual, who is difficult to hold accountable, leading to the problem of strongmen (caudillos) which have been a plague upon Latin American history-and maybe now with Trump the US is starting to move in the same direction
- hybrid_study 2y ago
  that was more or less Jared Diamond's take in his book "Collapse". Both countries have struggled historically but the DR made better decisions when it came to environment conservation, which can be seen as a product of having more stable institutions
- rayiner 2y ago
  You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions, but the people served by the institutions. Try reading the constitutions of some of these dysfunctional places sometime--there's nothing wrong with the words on the paper. So your point about whether "you are lucky enough to get such a stable system" is inaccurate. It's not luck. People created those systems. You can even see how that processed happened, deliberately, in recent history in places like Singapore.
  - skybrian 2y ago
    Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?
  - jyounker 2y ago
    It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8
  - marojejian 2y ago
    What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?
  - darksaints 2y ago
    The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.
- H8crilA 2y ago
  This is called conservatism. It also shows that Trump and his court are not conservatives at all.
TulliusCicero 2y ago
Hard to see how this could be solved, outside of Haiti being "lucky" enough to get one gang leader who defeats the others and tries to establish a stable government. A serious international intervention is basically a non-starter. Rich countries would be accused of colonialism and sharply criticized for any mistake, other countries in the region don't have the money or force capability, and nobody has a real motivation to pursue such a thankless task. If I remember right, Haitians themselves are pretty iffy on even wanting security provided by foreigners (due to history).
- RainyDayTmrw 2y ago
  You have to admit, the track record for international intervention is extremely spotty. When was the last time that a rich country went into a poor country, for non-self-serving motivations, and fixed most big issues? I freely admit that I'm not a good student of history, but I can't actually think of one.
  - brcmthrowaway 2y ago
    Aus intervention in East Timor.
    - galfarragem 2y ago
      Australia had oil interests in the region.
  - adamnemecek 2y ago
    UK intervention in Sierra Leone in 2000.
  - nindalf 2y ago
    You’ve made the requirements impossible to satisfy when you added “non-self-serving motivations”. The world is relatively small and disasters have ripple effects. Almost any action a country takes will either help or hurt them. Since the people in charge will mostly try to take actions that help their country, they look self serving now. A sibling comment mentioned the Australian intervention in East Timor. I can easily dismiss that by saying “well the Australians have a vested interest in a stable neighbourhood. They’re just self pricks looking out for themselves”. This statement would be technically correct but also pretty meaningless in this discussion.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
throwaway48476 2y ago
Hispaniola is the most excellent way to remove environmental factors explanations.
areoform 2y ago
There are uncomfortable truths in the world, and Haiti's story is one of them. After the slaves revolted and gained independence in 1804, the state was embargoed. Haiti's first president, Alexandre Pétion, offered paying the value of the lost land to the French government. Simultaneously, they reached out to the British and offered favorable trade terms to them. But a slave revolt was seen as untenable at the time and the British agreed to allow France to pursue "whatever means possible, including that of arms, to recover Saint-Domingue and to subdue the inhabitants of that colony." Around the same time, Haiti tried to ally itself with the US, offering its ports + favorable trade. The US also sided with the French against the former slave colony. Facing military invasion, in 1825, they agreed to pay indemnity for the value of the slaves lost by the French government for a total of 150 million francs. As they couldn't pay the amount in lump sum, Haiti was forced to enter into unfavorable loans with the United States and France to pay the slavery debt. Around 80%+ of GDP was used to pay foreign debt By the late 1800s, eighty percent of Haiti's wealth was being used to pay foreign debt; France was the highest collector, followed by the German Empire and the United States Non-payment wasn't an option. In 1903, Haiti accused the capital institutions France had set up for debt extraction within Haiti of fraud. That threat led a coalition of private entities who owned the bonds, working with the US State Department, to use the US military to invade the former state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... Haiti didn't pay off its debts until 1947. For reference, Joe Biden was 5 years old when Haiti finally paid off this slavery debt. As the overwhelming majority of the state's economic output was sapped by this debt, Haiti lacked the ability to invest in itself until the end of WW2. Post-WW2, Haiti went through decades of political turmoil and never achieved political stability. Haiti's present cannot be judged without the weight of this past. And it's future cannot be charted without accounting for it. Of course, the place that was invaded at the drop of a hat and deprived of resources never learned to build civil institutions and non-corrupt governance. Fixing this probably requires a lot of close study to develop very specific interventions to change Haiti's culture and help it prosper.
- sc68cal 2y ago
  I'm glad that finally someone pointed this out. Debt slavery for a country that dared to fight back.
welder 2y ago
I follow this guy https://www.instagram.com/sean_haiti https://www.instagram.com/sean_haiti I'm in the DR right now and some locals are worried about the violence in Constanza spreading but most are just going about their lives. The DR is the least stressful country int he world after all.
vladsanchez 2y ago
https://archive.ph/YRcLr https://archive.ph/YRcLr

55 points by marojejian 2y ago

No paywall: https://archive.is/DkjIV https://archive.is/DkjIV

To me the core lesson here is the incredible value of stable political and economic institutions. (even after adjusting for the incredible injustice of all the external actors, and nature itself). If you are lucky enough to get such a stable system, it's a high priority to defend it. Don't weaken it for marginal improvements for your cause.

TMWNN 2y ago
Relevant: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
- Svip 2y ago
  That Reddit discussion is from 9 years ago. There is a new constitution _possibly_ coming up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Haitian_constitutional_re...
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    A presidential system with FPTP in a historically unstable country seems ripe for dictatorial abuse. Turkey is much more stable than Haiti, but Erdogan managed to build an authoritarian system centered around him anyway, and a constitutional change towards presidential system was a crucial step. Presidential system might work in France and the US, but especially in the US the near future of it is still uncertain. Trying it in countries that barely hold together doesn't seem wise.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > Presidential system might work in France France has a semipresidential system, not a presidential system - it has both a President directly elected by the voters, and a Prime Minister accountable to the legislature, with the two having a (somewhat complicated and uneasy) division of powers - essentially, the President controls foreign relations and the military, the Prime Minister controls most domestic policies. It works reasonably well when both President and Prime Minister are from the same party, it works with more acrimony when they are from opposed parties (cohabitation), the recent political upheavals in France have led more and more to question if it is still the right system, or whether France should return to the parliamentary system of its Third and Fourth republics - but, even at its worst, I think it still works better than the presidential system used by the US and much of Latin America. The presidential system concentrates too much power in a single individual, who is difficult to hold accountable, leading to the problem of strongmen (caudillos) which have been a plague upon Latin American history-and maybe now with Trump the US is starting to move in the same direction
hybrid_study 2y ago
that was more or less Jared Diamond's take in his book "Collapse". Both countries have struggled historically but the DR made better decisions when it came to environment conservation, which can be seen as a product of having more stable institutions
rayiner 2y ago
You're burying the lede, which is that "stable political and economic institutions" are that way because of the people. Not just the people in the institutions, but the people served by the institutions. Try reading the constitutions of some of these dysfunctional places sometime--there's nothing wrong with the words on the paper. So your point about whether "you are lucky enough to get such a stable system" is inaccurate. It's not luck. People created those systems. You can even see how that processed happened, deliberately, in recent history in places like Singapore.
- skybrian 2y ago
  Sure, there were people who created those systems, but most didn't really get a choice in how it happened. Singapore seems like a pretty good example of that, too?
- jyounker 2y ago
  It's hard to create a stable state when the US, England, and France have spent well over a hundred years actively undermining your country. The first half of Behind The Bastard's episode on Baby Doc has a pretty good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEEokXizd8
- marojejian 2y ago
  What about the people in the DR are/were fundamentally different from the people in Haiti? and why did these people change so dramatically around 1960?
- darksaints 2y ago
  The US is on their second republic because the articles of confederation failed, and is looking down the barrel of a second dissolution as we speak. France is on their fifth republic, because the previous four republics failed. If France’s latest success is due to their people, wouldn’t that contradict their previous failures? Sure, the people have an outsized influence on the success of a nation, but the institutions also shape the people and empower some people over others. Can you imagine how much differently the US would look if it wasn’t founded on slavery and oppression? If women didnt have to wait 150 years to vote? If we didn’t institutionalize a gerrymanderable legislative system? The institutions matter AND people matter, but bad institutions empower terrible people.
H8crilA 2y ago
This is called conservatism. It also shows that Trump and his court are not conservatives at all.

TulliusCicero 2y ago

Hard to see how this could be solved, outside of Haiti being "lucky" enough to get one gang leader who defeats the others and tries to establish a stable government. A serious international intervention is basically a non-starter. Rich countries would be accused of colonialism and sharply criticized for any mistake, other countries in the region don't have the money or force capability, and nobody has a real motivation to pursue such a thankless task. If I remember right, Haitians themselves are pretty iffy on even wanting security provided by foreigners (due to history).

RainyDayTmrw 2y ago
You have to admit, the track record for international intervention is extremely spotty. When was the last time that a rich country went into a poor country, for non-self-serving motivations, and fixed most big issues? I freely admit that I'm not a good student of history, but I can't actually think of one.
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  Aus intervention in East Timor.
  - galfarragem 2y ago
    Australia had oil interests in the region.
- adamnemecek 2y ago
  UK intervention in Sierra Leone in 2000.
- nindalf 2y ago
  You’ve made the requirements impossible to satisfy when you added “non-self-serving motivations”. The world is relatively small and disasters have ripple effects. Almost any action a country takes will either help or hurt them. Since the people in charge will mostly try to take actions that help their country, they look self serving now. A sibling comment mentioned the Australian intervention in East Timor. I can easily dismiss that by saying “well the Australians have a vested interest in a stable neighbourhood. They’re just self pricks looking out for themselves”. This statement would be technically correct but also pretty meaningless in this discussion.

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

throwaway48476 2y ago

Hispaniola is the most excellent way to remove environmental factors explanations.

areoform 2y ago

There are uncomfortable truths in the world, and Haiti's story is one of them. After the slaves revolted and gained independence in 1804, the state was embargoed. Haiti's first president, Alexandre Pétion, offered paying the value of the lost land to the French government. Simultaneously, they reached out to the British and offered favorable trade terms to them. But a slave revolt was seen as untenable at the time and the British agreed to allow France to pursue "whatever means possible, including that of arms, to recover Saint-Domingue and to subdue the inhabitants of that colony." Around the same time, Haiti tried to ally itself with the US, offering its ports + favorable trade. The US also sided with the French against the former slave colony. Facing military invasion, in 1825, they agreed to pay indemnity for the value of the slaves lost by the French government for a total of 150 million francs. As they couldn't pay the amount in lump sum, Haiti was forced to enter into unfavorable loans with the United States and France to pay the slavery debt. Around 80%+ of GDP was used to pay foreign debt By the late 1800s, eighty percent of Haiti's wealth was being used to pay foreign debt; France was the highest collector, followed by the German Empire and the United States Non-payment wasn't an option. In 1903, Haiti accused the capital institutions France had set up for debt extraction within Haiti of fraud. That threat led a coalition of private entities who owned the bonds, working with the US State Department, to use the US military to invade the former state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... Haiti didn't pay off its debts until 1947. For reference, Joe Biden was 5 years old when Haiti finally paid off this slavery debt. As the overwhelming majority of the state's economic output was sapped by this debt, Haiti lacked the ability to invest in itself until the end of WW2. Post-WW2, Haiti went through decades of political turmoil and never achieved political stability. Haiti's present cannot be judged without the weight of this past. And it's future cannot be charted without accounting for it. Of course, the place that was invaded at the drop of a hat and deprived of resources never learned to build civil institutions and non-corrupt governance. Fixing this probably requires a lot of close study to develop very specific interventions to change Haiti's culture and help it prosper.

sc68cal 2y ago
I'm glad that finally someone pointed this out. Debt slavery for a country that dared to fight back.

welder 2y ago

I follow this guy https://www.instagram.com/sean_haiti https://www.instagram.com/sean_haiti I'm in the DR right now and some locals are worried about the violence in Constanza spreading but most are just going about their lives. The DR is the least stressful country int he world after all.

vladsanchez 2y ago

https://archive.ph/YRcLr https://archive.ph/YRcLr