5 ms·

And I don't think we will get there with digital computers either.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Oh sure, because neurons totally get a free pass from determinism, right? They're obviously powered by tiny wizards flipping quantum coins, unlike boring digital computers just mindlessly following rules. Newsflash: neurons and digital computers both have to play by the universe's stubbornly deterministic rules—it's all just matter wiggling predictably, with neurons simply doing it in a squishier way.
- dingnuts 2y ago
  you're making a straw man argument and being an asshole about it to boot. neurons aren't binary. who knows if they're special in a way digital computers can't simulate -- they aren't well understood. nobody said anything about determinism besides you
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    " digital computers either". Most of the time someone brings up the word 'Digital' they are talking about 1's and 0's, and how everything is known and determined, and thus looses the ineffable human quality. "they're special in a way digital computers can't simulate" I might be making a straw man, but you are literally just saying "something magical that exists outside physics must be going on"
    - nipah 2y ago
      This is a strawman, but it also could be the case of it being something supernatural. You don't have the skill to enter in a serious discussion about that either, so calling it "magic" is the unique thing will help you here (as people are usually scared of things they can't explain). But it would be the case that the universe is non-computable, and if this is the case, even without "magic", you would not be able to reproduce certain kinds of things (even not conscious ones) with a computer.
- StopTheWorld 2y ago
  > flipping quantum coins...Newsflash: neurons and digital computers both have to play by the universe's stubbornly deterministic rules I don't really understand what this means - you obviously know at the smallest level things happen by random probability - because you mention the quantum world - but then you say the universe is deterministic.
  - Aardwolf 2y ago
    Computers can also include physics based random number generators so that's still simulatable. And analog computing also is possible. Quantum computing not really yet but theoretically possible. Not sure if any other wizard hat things than those can extend classical digital computing
    - nipah 2y ago
      This is just partially a solution, because this assumes cognition as a whole is computable.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    Because randomness does not introduce agency. Bringing up 'Quantum' effects to somehow free us from determinism and somehow introduce free will, is completely false. Somehow using the word "Quantum" explains human consciousness is wrong. A coin flip is still determined. You don't know which way it will flip, but also, you aren't deciding which way it will flip. The future is determined either way, determined one way, or determined the other way.
    - nipah 2y ago
      It does not introduce, but maybe the combination of both does (see Searle points in freedom and neurobiology). You also need to prove that the future is determined, simply assuming so is an error.
  - munksbeer 2y ago
    > you obviously know at the smallest level things happen by random probability We don't actually know this. It is just what we observe that fits our map so far.
nilslindemann 2y ago
So, with what?
- mkoubaa 2y ago
  If we get there, and it's not guaranteed that we do, it will be a different kind of machine.

Oh sure, because neurons totally get a free pass from determinism, right? They're obviously powered by tiny wizards flipping quantum coins, unlike boring digital computers just mindlessly following rules. Newsflash: neurons and digital computers both have to play by the universe's stubbornly deterministic rules—it's all just matter wiggling predictably, with neurons simply doing it in a squishier way.

dingnuts 2y ago
you're making a straw man argument and being an asshole about it to boot. neurons aren't binary. who knows if they're special in a way digital computers can't simulate -- they aren't well understood. nobody said anything about determinism besides you
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  " digital computers either". Most of the time someone brings up the word 'Digital' they are talking about 1's and 0's, and how everything is known and determined, and thus looses the ineffable human quality. "they're special in a way digital computers can't simulate" I might be making a straw man, but you are literally just saying "something magical that exists outside physics must be going on"
  - nipah 2y ago
    This is a strawman, but it also could be the case of it being something supernatural. You don't have the skill to enter in a serious discussion about that either, so calling it "magic" is the unique thing will help you here (as people are usually scared of things they can't explain). But it would be the case that the universe is non-computable, and if this is the case, even without "magic", you would not be able to reproduce certain kinds of things (even not conscious ones) with a computer.
StopTheWorld 2y ago
> flipping quantum coins...Newsflash: neurons and digital computers both have to play by the universe's stubbornly deterministic rules I don't really understand what this means - you obviously know at the smallest level things happen by random probability - because you mention the quantum world - but then you say the universe is deterministic.
- Aardwolf 2y ago
  Computers can also include physics based random number generators so that's still simulatable. And analog computing also is possible. Quantum computing not really yet but theoretically possible. Not sure if any other wizard hat things than those can extend classical digital computing
  - nipah 2y ago
    This is just partially a solution, because this assumes cognition as a whole is computable.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Because randomness does not introduce agency. Bringing up 'Quantum' effects to somehow free us from determinism and somehow introduce free will, is completely false. Somehow using the word "Quantum" explains human consciousness is wrong. A coin flip is still determined. You don't know which way it will flip, but also, you aren't deciding which way it will flip. The future is determined either way, determined one way, or determined the other way.
  - nipah 2y ago
    It does not introduce, but maybe the combination of both does (see Searle points in freedom and neurobiology). You also need to prove that the future is determined, simply assuming so is an error.
- munksbeer 2y ago
  > you obviously know at the smallest level things happen by random probability We don't actually know this. It is just what we observe that fits our map so far.

nilslindemann 2y ago

So, with what?

mkoubaa 2y ago
If we get there, and it's not guaranteed that we do, it will be a different kind of machine.