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I really like this. Reminds me of ezines and webzines. However, I'm tempted to ask - how to comfortably read this on a computer if you don't have a reasonably g

by laacz 2y ago

I really like this. Reminds me of ezines and webzines. However, I'm tempted to ask - how to comfortably read this on a computer if you don't have a reasonably good vision? Either you have to scroll up and down to follow the content, or you see whole page at once, but need to squint to read contents.

yu3zhou4 2y ago
Agreed! If we went full latex, it could be make a two way like arxiv recently did with html5 rendering of latex
- gynvael 2y ago
  Sadly that's not doable for us. LaTeX, for all its benefits, has terrible user experience and would drive away a lot of authors. One of the benefits of using PDFs is that anyone can use almost any tool they feel comfortable with to make the article (except for Photoshop - we banned Photoshop PDFs because they are ridiculously constructed). For example, I use Google Slides for my articles (which seems like a weird choice, but it's so easy to do complex one-of formatting in it).
  - yu3zhou4 2y ago
    That is a reasonable tradeoff for sure. I’m still thinking what could we do to improve readibility on mobile devices though
    - gynvael 2y ago
      Yeah. I don't think it's a solvable problem, but ideas are always welcome :)
gynvael 2y ago
(PO! lead here) You are right, that's one of the unfortunate limitations of the format – having to constantly scroll the PDF. And this is on me, since ultimately I've made some decisions when establishing it which basically boxed us into this format. I.e. thanks to using a PDF we can give authors full flexibility on how to lay out their article, which allows folks to be really really creative (as you can see in this issue). The obvious problem with that (apart from countless hours foxtrot_charlie - our DTP/PDF programmer - has to spent on fighting with PDF weirdness) is that reading an A4 PDF isn't great for phones, computers screens, or tables. It's even worse if you're using a screen reader, since getting PDFs in the way we get them and making them screen reader compatible is... complicated, to say the least (that's why it's not yet there). On the flip side, everyone has a PDF reader nowadays, articles look everywhere the same (this wouldn't be true for other formats), and it's also printable almost out of the box. So, pros and cons. At the end of the day I don't think there's an easy out for us without breaking any of the things which make Paged Out! what folks like about it. The things I want to improve is getting printed versions more accessible, and some day finally getting solid screen reader support. But other than that I do believe the scrolling problem with remain with the zine. ETA: Actually I also want "readings" of articles to become a thing. From the get go we put the in the author's license (note: not all articles use it, but most do) the ability for folks to agree to have their articles be recorded in an audio form. I think that would be cool for folks who like consuming things like audiobooks or podcasts. And it would save us from scrolling (for the cost of having illustrations described instead of seeing them).
- laacz 2y ago
  Printable subscription would be nice. It often times just helps financing the venture, as well as for sponsors to have something on hand. I'd still keep in mind that this format severily limits reach in times where short (kudos for one page thing!) and accessible form is an expectation. Nevertheless - I will keep reading and spreading the word. Tangenatially. How would audio reading work for posts with code samples and diagrams in it? Do you have an example of that?
  - gynvael 2y ago
    You hit the nail on the had with your question – this is the most problematic part of it. Most illustrations are a bit simpler to handle than code and the way is pretty much paved by HTML img alt texts (the well written ones, that actually can substitute for the illustration by conveying the same information). Ideally we should receive the ALT texts from article authors, but effectively (for now) it would be up to the person reading to come up with a solid substitution text. Code is a different can of worms. My favorite idea so far is to basically explain what the code does as close as possible, without actually reading it, and then having a separate audio track with the code being read (likely just by a text-to-speech algorithm, though possibly augmented a bit to include things like "next line" or "this line has a 2-level indent" for Python code). I don't have an example yet, but let me get back to you on that next week, since I was thinking of doing recordings for my two articles in this issue.
- Kwpolska 2y ago
  It would be good to figure out how many people actually care about printability. Perhaps what you could do is: 1. HTML is the primary format for articles. Authors can do whatever tricks they like in CSS, but are encouraged to make their layouts reasonably responsive. JS should be limited to things that actually benefit the article (such as LaTeX rendering or simple live examples). 2. The article must fit on one page when printed to PDF using a mainstream Web browser. 3. The author should provide a PDF file. It could just be the output of printing the HTML to PDF from a browser, or it could be something fancier, as long as it fits on a page and has the same text as the HTML version. Looking at the most recent issue, most articles could be faithfully reproduced with a typical modern Markdown implementation (one that supports tables and code highlighting, and maybe LaTeX math) and some simple CSS.
b0dhimind 2y ago
A vertical monitor

by laacz 2y ago

yu3zhou4 2y ago

Agreed! If we went full latex, it could be make a two way like arxiv recently did with html5 rendering of latex

gynvael 2y ago
Sadly that's not doable for us. LaTeX, for all its benefits, has terrible user experience and would drive away a lot of authors. One of the benefits of using PDFs is that anyone can use almost any tool they feel comfortable with to make the article (except for Photoshop - we banned Photoshop PDFs because they are ridiculously constructed). For example, I use Google Slides for my articles (which seems like a weird choice, but it's so easy to do complex one-of formatting in it).
- yu3zhou4 2y ago
  That is a reasonable tradeoff for sure. I’m still thinking what could we do to improve readibility on mobile devices though
  - gynvael 2y ago
    Yeah. I don't think it's a solvable problem, but ideas are always welcome :)

gynvael 2y ago

(PO! lead here) You are right, that's one of the unfortunate limitations of the format – having to constantly scroll the PDF. And this is on me, since ultimately I've made some decisions when establishing it which basically boxed us into this format. I.e. thanks to using a PDF we can give authors full flexibility on how to lay out their article, which allows folks to be really really creative (as you can see in this issue). The obvious problem with that (apart from countless hours foxtrot_charlie - our DTP/PDF programmer - has to spent on fighting with PDF weirdness) is that reading an A4 PDF isn't great for phones, computers screens, or tables. It's even worse if you're using a screen reader, since getting PDFs in the way we get them and making them screen reader compatible is... complicated, to say the least (that's why it's not yet there). On the flip side, everyone has a PDF reader nowadays, articles look everywhere the same (this wouldn't be true for other formats), and it's also printable almost out of the box. So, pros and cons. At the end of the day I don't think there's an easy out for us without breaking any of the things which make Paged Out! what folks like about it. The things I want to improve is getting printed versions more accessible, and some day finally getting solid screen reader support. But other than that I do believe the scrolling problem with remain with the zine. ETA: Actually I also want "readings" of articles to become a thing. From the get go we put the in the author's license (note: not all articles use it, but most do) the ability for folks to agree to have their articles be recorded in an audio form. I think that would be cool for folks who like consuming things like audiobooks or podcasts. And it would save us from scrolling (for the cost of having illustrations described instead of seeing them).

laacz 2y ago
Printable subscription would be nice. It often times just helps financing the venture, as well as for sponsors to have something on hand. I'd still keep in mind that this format severily limits reach in times where short (kudos for one page thing!) and accessible form is an expectation. Nevertheless - I will keep reading and spreading the word. Tangenatially. How would audio reading work for posts with code samples and diagrams in it? Do you have an example of that?
- gynvael 2y ago
  You hit the nail on the had with your question – this is the most problematic part of it. Most illustrations are a bit simpler to handle than code and the way is pretty much paved by HTML img alt texts (the well written ones, that actually can substitute for the illustration by conveying the same information). Ideally we should receive the ALT texts from article authors, but effectively (for now) it would be up to the person reading to come up with a solid substitution text. Code is a different can of worms. My favorite idea so far is to basically explain what the code does as close as possible, without actually reading it, and then having a separate audio track with the code being read (likely just by a text-to-speech algorithm, though possibly augmented a bit to include things like "next line" or "this line has a 2-level indent" for Python code). I don't have an example yet, but let me get back to you on that next week, since I was thinking of doing recordings for my two articles in this issue.
Kwpolska 2y ago
It would be good to figure out how many people actually care about printability. Perhaps what you could do is: 1. HTML is the primary format for articles. Authors can do whatever tricks they like in CSS, but are encouraged to make their layouts reasonably responsive. JS should be limited to things that actually benefit the article (such as LaTeX rendering or simple live examples). 2. The article must fit on one page when printed to PDF using a mainstream Web browser. 3. The author should provide a PDF file. It could just be the output of printing the HTML to PDF from a browser, or it could be something fancier, as long as it fits on a page and has the same text as the HTML version. Looking at the most recent issue, most articles could be faithfully reproduced with a typical modern Markdown implementation (one that supports tables and code highlighting, and maybe LaTeX math) and some simple CSS.

b0dhimind 2y ago

A vertical monitor