8 ms·

To be honest, this is part of why TVs can be offered for so cheap these days. Same reason really cheap phones are stuffed with bloatware. Luckily with TVs you

by jorvi 2y ago

To be honest, this is part of why TVs can be offered for so cheap these days. Same reason really cheap phones are stuffed with bloatware. Luckily with TVs you can freeload: just never connect it to the internet and only apply updates via USB. Stick an Apple TV / Chromecast / console into it for playback. This might even become standard operating procedure considering Samsung is getting into the ad game, and LG and Sony likely to follow.

SoftTalker 2y ago
Or take the back off and remove the WiFi module
- footlose_3815 2y ago
  Or just don't give it your Wifi password...
  - 3np 2y ago
    I recall reading a few years back about some crapware that opportunistically would attempt connecting through any available AP (e.g. your neighbor) and smuggle data that way.
    - wruza 2y ago
      The rumor was not only that, but also peering through neighbors devices from the same company.
      - 3np 2y ago
        I recall the same, and that there was evidence. Anyone bother digging up a source?
    - footlose_3815 2y ago
      What nearby available AP could possibly have open access in 2025? For real, I haven't seen an "Open" Wifi network that wasn't a Coffee shop or Airport in over 10 years. Yes, it's insidious and evil, but I'd argue the attack surface is almost nonexistent in 2025.
throwup238 2y ago
I don’t know how much longer that will be possible with how cheap 5G is getting. Sooner or later they’ll be able to install a $10 part and make a deal with wireless carriers as backhaul for unconnected TVs. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone has already made a deal with Spectrum or XFinity to use those open wifi networks that are open to customers via their account signin. The best solution is commercial displays but those can be quite a bit more expensive and hard to pick out.
- thakoppno 2y ago
  > I wouldn’t be surprised if someone has already made a deal with Spectrum or XFinity to use those open wifi networks that are open to customers via their account signin. I’m skeptical an arrangement like this could work. The authentication mechanism would be interesting enough to attract security researchers and likely open anonymous Internet access that may undermine any potential benefit gained from viewer data. I could be wrong but I hope not.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Definitely a risk. I knew a guy who basically got internet access at his apartment in college via his local DOT. The message signs on the boulevard he worked on were just cellular mifi units with open or default credentials. Not super fast, but the price was right.
    - waltbosz 2y ago
      Tangental story about free Internet. I once got a few years of free broadband Internet because I signed up for broadband plus basic cable, but they never put broadband on my bill. They came and did the installation and everything. Then when it eventually shut off, I called them back to complain and they said they had no record of me being a broadband customer, so I was able to sign up for the lower new customer rate. At the same time, my TV had a built in digital tuner that could tune into the on-demand streams of other people in my neighborhood. I could watch as the paused/rewind/etc. The watching trends were interesting. Late nights you'd see soft-core adult movies, Saturday mornings you'd see lots of kid's shows.
like_any_other 2y ago
> To be honest, this is part of why TVs can be offered for so cheap these days I spent $3,000 on a Samsung Smart TV -- and all I got were ads and unwanted content - https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-spent-3000-on-a-samsung-smart-tv-and-all-i-got-were-ads-and-unwanted-content/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-s... It'll be a cold day in hell when I believe corporate lies that they're doing all of this for my benefit. Especially when they neither clearly disclose all the ads and spying before purchase, nor offer an option without it at any price.
- foobarchu 2y ago
  Also when they add these "features" to TVs that were purchased without them. Like how would it be received if the builder of your house could come in and put up ad murals on your walls without asking? Would we accept "it subsidizes costs" as an answer?
  - Ringz 2y ago
    If I were in real estate, I’d be grateful for this idea right now.
- torh 2y ago
  I bought a Philips many years ago, and it was perfect until an update suddenly gave me a lot of crap (ads) on the home screen. Ironically they also provided a button where I could "adjust what you see on the home screen", but it turned out I could only add more crap. Not take anything away. It's annoying, because it is not the same product I bought. It's worse.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Allowing consumer devices to connect to the internet does users more harm than good these days.
donohoe 2y ago
No it’s not. The cost dropped because new tech became cheaper over time.
philsnow 2y ago
(4 years ago) I guessed that Amazon was going to sell access to its Sidewalk network to tv manufacturers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 If they do that, they’re not going to be very upfront about it.
exe34 2y ago
don't buy Chromecast, updates/resets will brick them.
cma 2y ago
> Luckily with TVs you can freeload: just never connect it to the internet and only apply updates via USB. Stick an Apple TV / Chromecast / console into it for playback With things like Amazon sidewalk, Samsung smartthings network, etc. it can still get data out
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
  Wouldn't the data be a lot less useful to them? Instead of 'customer watched X show for Y minutes' it'd be 'customer X watched Y minutes of unknown on HDMI1'.
  - toast0 2y ago
    There's ways to fingerprint the content. A low res, low quality jpeg once a minute or N seconds into a scene transition is quite small. I think audio fingerprinting can be effective and very low bandwidth as well.
  - cma 2y ago
    As edge AI gets better they will be able to send smaller textual descriptions of the screen content.
    - cma 2y ago
      Something like color histogram data is probably enough for fingerprinting known content.
swat535 2y ago
I think it’s only a matter of time until TVs refusing to work without internet or randomly interrupting your watching experience to ask you to connect to the internet. Heck, they can even learn from Microsoft now and demand a Vizio account, iPhone apps, etc. Additionally they could start producing them without HDMI or other ports to prevent Apple TV or other similar devices from connecting. What I’m trying to say is that corporate greed is limitless and the only thing that can prevent abuse will be strict regulations at the end of day.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  I hate this as much as you, but don't agree regulation is the only solution. In part because it tends to get things wrong, skew markets, favour incumbents and ultimately retard innovation by startup efforts like mine. When a company treats its customers like crap, that opens an opportunity for someone else to come along and do better. Corporations are copying each other's bad habits right now, the kind of behavior you've described is a trend and the ones partaking in this race to the bottom will fail. I'm looking forward to a "revolution" when one rediscovers there's actually a market for quality consumer electronics that treat you decently and are a joy to use (think Apple's earlier iPhone models, auto manufacturers going back to knobs and buttons, etc) and might pursue this myself if nobody else does. To be clear, I'm not opposed to legislation enforcing some basic, much-needed principles (like privacy preservation, requiring opt-in consent, attaching more liability to collected user data even to the point of establishing fiduciary-like duty on the sensitive stuff, stricter transparency and better user controls promoting consumer choice). I just think you need to be careful about getting too prescriptive on the "how".

by jorvi 2y ago

SoftTalker 2y ago

Or take the back off and remove the WiFi module

footlose_3815 2y ago
Or just don't give it your Wifi password...
- 3np 2y ago
  I recall reading a few years back about some crapware that opportunistically would attempt connecting through any available AP (e.g. your neighbor) and smuggle data that way.
  - wruza 2y ago
    The rumor was not only that, but also peering through neighbors devices from the same company.
    - 3np 2y ago
      I recall the same, and that there was evidence. Anyone bother digging up a source?
  - footlose_3815 2y ago
    What nearby available AP could possibly have open access in 2025? For real, I haven't seen an "Open" Wifi network that wasn't a Coffee shop or Airport in over 10 years. Yes, it's insidious and evil, but I'd argue the attack surface is almost nonexistent in 2025.

throwup238 2y ago

I don’t know how much longer that will be possible with how cheap 5G is getting. Sooner or later they’ll be able to install a $10 part and make a deal with wireless carriers as backhaul for unconnected TVs. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone has already made a deal with Spectrum or XFinity to use those open wifi networks that are open to customers via their account signin. The best solution is commercial displays but those can be quite a bit more expensive and hard to pick out.

thakoppno 2y ago
> I wouldn’t be surprised if someone has already made a deal with Spectrum or XFinity to use those open wifi networks that are open to customers via their account signin. I’m skeptical an arrangement like this could work. The authentication mechanism would be interesting enough to attract security researchers and likely open anonymous Internet access that may undermine any potential benefit gained from viewer data. I could be wrong but I hope not.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Definitely a risk. I knew a guy who basically got internet access at his apartment in college via his local DOT. The message signs on the boulevard he worked on were just cellular mifi units with open or default credentials. Not super fast, but the price was right.
  - waltbosz 2y ago
    Tangental story about free Internet. I once got a few years of free broadband Internet because I signed up for broadband plus basic cable, but they never put broadband on my bill. They came and did the installation and everything. Then when it eventually shut off, I called them back to complain and they said they had no record of me being a broadband customer, so I was able to sign up for the lower new customer rate. At the same time, my TV had a built in digital tuner that could tune into the on-demand streams of other people in my neighborhood. I could watch as the paused/rewind/etc. The watching trends were interesting. Late nights you'd see soft-core adult movies, Saturday mornings you'd see lots of kid's shows.

like_any_other 2y ago

> To be honest, this is part of why TVs can be offered for so cheap these days I spent $3,000 on a Samsung Smart TV -- and all I got were ads and unwanted content - https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-spent-3000-on-a-samsung-smart-tv-and-all-i-got-were-ads-and-unwanted-content/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-s... It'll be a cold day in hell when I believe corporate lies that they're doing all of this for my benefit. Especially when they neither clearly disclose all the ads and spying before purchase, nor offer an option without it at any price.

foobarchu 2y ago
Also when they add these "features" to TVs that were purchased without them. Like how would it be received if the builder of your house could come in and put up ad murals on your walls without asking? Would we accept "it subsidizes costs" as an answer?
- Ringz 2y ago
  If I were in real estate, I’d be grateful for this idea right now.
torh 2y ago
I bought a Philips many years ago, and it was perfect until an update suddenly gave me a lot of crap (ads) on the home screen. Ironically they also provided a button where I could "adjust what you see on the home screen", but it turned out I could only add more crap. Not take anything away. It's annoying, because it is not the same product I bought. It's worse.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Allowing consumer devices to connect to the internet does users more harm than good these days.

donohoe 2y ago

No it’s not. The cost dropped because new tech became cheaper over time.

philsnow 2y ago

(4 years ago) I guessed that Amazon was going to sell access to its Sidewalk network to tv manufacturers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 If they do that, they’re not going to be very upfront about it.

exe34 2y ago

don't buy Chromecast, updates/resets will brick them.

cma 2y ago

> Luckily with TVs you can freeload: just never connect it to the internet and only apply updates via USB. Stick an Apple TV / Chromecast / console into it for playback With things like Amazon sidewalk, Samsung smartthings network, etc. it can still get data out

blacksmith_tb 2y ago
Wouldn't the data be a lot less useful to them? Instead of 'customer watched X show for Y minutes' it'd be 'customer X watched Y minutes of unknown on HDMI1'.
- toast0 2y ago
  There's ways to fingerprint the content. A low res, low quality jpeg once a minute or N seconds into a scene transition is quite small. I think audio fingerprinting can be effective and very low bandwidth as well.
- cma 2y ago
  As edge AI gets better they will be able to send smaller textual descriptions of the screen content.
  - cma 2y ago
    Something like color histogram data is probably enough for fingerprinting known content.

swat535 2y ago

I think it’s only a matter of time until TVs refusing to work without internet or randomly interrupting your watching experience to ask you to connect to the internet. Heck, they can even learn from Microsoft now and demand a Vizio account, iPhone apps, etc. Additionally they could start producing them without HDMI or other ports to prevent Apple TV or other similar devices from connecting. What I’m trying to say is that corporate greed is limitless and the only thing that can prevent abuse will be strict regulations at the end of day.

rkagerer 2y ago
I hate this as much as you, but don't agree regulation is the only solution. In part because it tends to get things wrong, skew markets, favour incumbents and ultimately retard innovation by startup efforts like mine. When a company treats its customers like crap, that opens an opportunity for someone else to come along and do better. Corporations are copying each other's bad habits right now, the kind of behavior you've described is a trend and the ones partaking in this race to the bottom will fail. I'm looking forward to a "revolution" when one rediscovers there's actually a market for quality consumer electronics that treat you decently and are a joy to use (think Apple's earlier iPhone models, auto manufacturers going back to knobs and buttons, etc) and might pursue this myself if nobody else does. To be clear, I'm not opposed to legislation enforcing some basic, much-needed principles (like privacy preservation, requiring opt-in consent, attaching more liability to collected user data even to the point of establishing fiduciary-like duty on the sensitive stuff, stricter transparency and better user controls promoting consumer choice). I just think you need to be careful about getting too prescriptive on the "how".