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A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of thei

A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!). Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole bunch of other things the government doesn't provide. They've essentially traded one government for another, but theirs requires belief in their religion and only applies to their believers (who happen to concentrate in Utah).

robocat 2y ago
> [The Mormons] believe in giving 10% of their income Is that income before tax or after tax? "After tax" seems like it should be obvious, but then wouldn't that require tax specialists to decide how to deal with tax exceptions (retirement taxation incentives, donations, etcetera). If the 10% donation is tax deductible, doesn't that require some mathematics to work out the 10%? Irrelevant aside: I think the efficient altruist 10% is "We're often asked how exactly to calculate income — should it be pre-tax or post-tax? Generally, we recommend choosing the option that makes most sense to you, though we think it makes sense to choose pre-tax if your donations are tax-deductible (for example, GiftAid counts towards your Pledge!) and post-tax if they're not.". https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge
- jedberg 2y ago
  It's pre-tax. It comes from the Bible where you set it aside "before anything else".
  - robocat 2y ago
    What about capital appreciation? Business losses? I presume there are guidelines that get complicated? Like Halakha or Sharia?
    - jedberg 2y ago
      I'm not Mormon, so I don't know for sure, but what I hear from people are or were Mormon, the enforcement is a combination of social pressure and the Church demanding you provide them with a copy of your taxes to remain a member. I assume it's pretty loose from there.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - smj-edison 2y ago
        I'm a Mormon, so I can answer these :) I can't speak to how enforcement was in the past (I haven't researched it enough to say), but the way it currently stands is there is a yearly "tithing settlement". No tax documents are requested, all that our church has is the amount I donate. The bishop asks if I'm a full tithe payer, and accepts my answer. Social pressure perhaps? But at least where I've been it's appeal to morality as taught in our canon. Membership is not rescinded for not paying tithing, but a temple recommend requires being a full tithe payer (as reported by me). EDIT: link to the official handbook: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?id=title_number69&lang=eng#title_number69 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-han...
        jedberg 2y ago
        Thanks for the info! Maybe the tax forms are on a per ward basis or per bishop?
        smj-edison 2y ago
        Not that I know of? I double-checked the handbook and there's nothing in there that mentions requesting tax forms, so it's certainly not official policy and if it did happen it should be reported. (We're very bureaucratic, lol) The only tax form I can think of is a form they send me so I can deduct it from taxes (as it's legally a tax-deductible donation). EDIT: Section 34.4, 34.5.2, and 34.5.6 are applicable. 34.4: > Confidentiality of Tithing and Other Offerings > The amount of tithing and other offerings paid by a donor is confidential. Only the bishop and those who are authorized to handle or view these contributions should have access to this information. Stake presidencies, bishoprics, and clerks should never inappropriately discuss a member’s tithing status. Nor should they discuss the total amount of tithing or other offerings received. 34.5.2: > Receiving Tithing and Other Offerings > The Lord has given bishops the sacred trust of receiving and accounting for the tithes and other offerings of the Saints (see Doctrine and Covenants 42:30–33; 119). Only the bishop and his counselors may receive tithes and other offerings. Under no circumstances should their wives, other members of their families, clerks, or other ward members receive these contributions. The only exception is when Aaronic Priesthood holders are assigned to collect fast offerings (see 34.3.2). > Church leaders and members should not leave donations unattended. 34.5.6: > Donation Statements > Donor Statements of Contributions are available to all members at donations.ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Leaders should encourage members to regularly review their donor statements. Where applicable, official tax statements are also available at donations.ChurchofJesusChrist.org, from the local unit, or from the area office.
  - mrkstu 2y ago
    There are endless debates about gross vs net and as with many things in the CoJCoLDS it is left up to the members to decide/define and to self-certify their compliance. Welfare programs are financed via a separate donation program via a monthly fast where the skipped meals expenses are donated to the program.
- cornstalks 2y ago
  > Is that income before tax or after tax? It’s up to personal interpretation. Some do before tax, some do after. Some only pay tithing on their regular income (i.e. from a normal job) but not on “already tithed” income (e.g. birthday money from parents), while others do it differently. The church’s stance is that they say you should pay 10% tithing on your income. They don’t define income. And all they do is ask “do you pay a full tithe?” And it’s up to you to decide if you do or not based on how you view what “income” means.
rayiner 2y ago
That’s the steel-man version of (american) conservatism: civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government. And in terms of aggregate outcomes, Utah’s results are impressive. The LDS apparently does a better job teaching kids to read than the government here in Maryland.
- Sabinus 2y ago
  >civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government Now that the internet has destroyed local community and trust in institutions, what will conservatism do?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jedberg 2y ago
  > Utah achieves great aggregate outcomes even compared to states that spend a lot more money That's because you're not counting the money the church spends to replace government programs, which in Utah is significant.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Utah has less money to start with, though. It doesn’t have big industries or things like that. Median income is $40,000 versus about $50,000 in Maryland and Massachusetts.
- voidhorse 2y ago
  Yeah, but extremely regressive views on equality and women's rights come along with it.... You can get a lot done when you establish regressive control structures for enforcement. Generally speaking, most people usually don't want that trade-off.
bennettnate5 2y ago
> and only applies to their believers (who happen to concentrate in Utah) Worth noting here that the church additionally spends north of $1 billion annually on humanitarian aid across the globe [1] (separate from the redistributions to the poor mentioned by OP). Aid is provided independent of religious affiliation. [1] https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-services https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-...
- bink 2y ago
  Al Capone ran soup kitchens. He seemed like a good dude. What percentage of their global wealth is $1 billion? I wish I knew but for some reason they keep that a secret. And don't leave or they'll expect your family to cut you off. *: searches suggest the wealth of the church to be around $265 billion. So their members give 10% annually to the church and the church gives less than 0.5% of their total wealth to the poor (but mostly to other Mormons or prospective converts). If you're wondering why they keep this massive horde of wealth, it's because they think it'll be needed for the apocalypse. Yes, it's for the apocalypse.
krupan 2y ago
Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate. Socialism is government-forced redistribution of wealth. A large majority of Mormons, at least in Utah, are very much opposed to that. You are correct that a large majority of Mormons voluntarily share their wealth with the poor and needy. You are incorrect saying that you have to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the actual name of the "Mormon church") to receive these benefits. In some cases there will be conditions, like if you want to attend one of the church universities you will need to promise to abstain from alcohol (one example), but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required
- jedberg 2y ago
  > Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate I would say it's very accurate. They are forced to share their wealth to get into the Kingdom of God. The only choice they have is to not go to heaven. I'd say that's being forced, just by a different power. > but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required You don't get the BYU discount unless you're baptized.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think you are missing the key element, that socialism isnt just a structure or institution, but a government policy and applied to all people within a society. It is neither optional or excludable. This is why the monopoly man choosing to share caviar with his family or paying dues to a yacht club does not make them a socialist. The monopoly man retains full agency over who they share with.
  - krupan 2y ago
    That's pretty different than getting arrested and thrown in jail by government thugs for not paying up, whether you believe in the cause or not, but ok? Even the non-member BYU tuition is subsidized and a much lower price than other comparable colleges. But really, BYU is not the best example of Mormon charity, it can only accommodate a limited number of students.

robocat 2y ago

> [The Mormons] believe in giving 10% of their income Is that income before tax or after tax? "After tax" seems like it should be obvious, but then wouldn't that require tax specialists to decide how to deal with tax exceptions (retirement taxation incentives, donations, etcetera). If the 10% donation is tax deductible, doesn't that require some mathematics to work out the 10%? Irrelevant aside: I think the efficient altruist 10% is "We're often asked how exactly to calculate income — should it be pre-tax or post-tax? Generally, we recommend choosing the option that makes most sense to you, though we think it makes sense to choose pre-tax if your donations are tax-deductible (for example, GiftAid counts towards your Pledge!) and post-tax if they're not.". https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge

jedberg 2y ago
It's pre-tax. It comes from the Bible where you set it aside "before anything else".
- robocat 2y ago
  What about capital appreciation? Business losses? I presume there are guidelines that get complicated? Like Halakha or Sharia?
  - jedberg 2y ago
    I'm not Mormon, so I don't know for sure, but what I hear from people are or were Mormon, the enforcement is a combination of social pressure and the Church demanding you provide them with a copy of your taxes to remain a member. I assume it's pretty loose from there.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - smj-edison 2y ago
      I'm a Mormon, so I can answer these :) I can't speak to how enforcement was in the past (I haven't researched it enough to say), but the way it currently stands is there is a yearly "tithing settlement". No tax documents are requested, all that our church has is the amount I donate. The bishop asks if I'm a full tithe payer, and accepts my answer. Social pressure perhaps? But at least where I've been it's appeal to morality as taught in our canon. Membership is not rescinded for not paying tithing, but a temple recommend requires being a full tithe payer (as reported by me). EDIT: link to the official handbook: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?id=title_number69&lang=eng#title_number69 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-han...
      - jedberg 2y ago
        Thanks for the info! Maybe the tax forms are on a per ward basis or per bishop?
        smj-edison 2y ago
        Not that I know of? I double-checked the handbook and there's nothing in there that mentions requesting tax forms, so it's certainly not official policy and if it did happen it should be reported. (We're very bureaucratic, lol) The only tax form I can think of is a form they send me so I can deduct it from taxes (as it's legally a tax-deductible donation). EDIT: Section 34.4, 34.5.2, and 34.5.6 are applicable. 34.4: > Confidentiality of Tithing and Other Offerings > The amount of tithing and other offerings paid by a donor is confidential. Only the bishop and those who are authorized to handle or view these contributions should have access to this information. Stake presidencies, bishoprics, and clerks should never inappropriately discuss a member’s tithing status. Nor should they discuss the total amount of tithing or other offerings received. 34.5.2: > Receiving Tithing and Other Offerings > The Lord has given bishops the sacred trust of receiving and accounting for the tithes and other offerings of the Saints (see Doctrine and Covenants 42:30–33; 119). Only the bishop and his counselors may receive tithes and other offerings. Under no circumstances should their wives, other members of their families, clerks, or other ward members receive these contributions. The only exception is when Aaronic Priesthood holders are assigned to collect fast offerings (see 34.3.2). > Church leaders and members should not leave donations unattended. 34.5.6: > Donation Statements > Donor Statements of Contributions are available to all members at donations.ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Leaders should encourage members to regularly review their donor statements. Where applicable, official tax statements are also available at donations.ChurchofJesusChrist.org, from the local unit, or from the area office.
- mrkstu 2y ago
  There are endless debates about gross vs net and as with many things in the CoJCoLDS it is left up to the members to decide/define and to self-certify their compliance. Welfare programs are financed via a separate donation program via a monthly fast where the skipped meals expenses are donated to the program.
cornstalks 2y ago
> Is that income before tax or after tax? It’s up to personal interpretation. Some do before tax, some do after. Some only pay tithing on their regular income (i.e. from a normal job) but not on “already tithed” income (e.g. birthday money from parents), while others do it differently. The church’s stance is that they say you should pay 10% tithing on your income. They don’t define income. And all they do is ask “do you pay a full tithe?” And it’s up to you to decide if you do or not based on how you view what “income” means.

rayiner 2y ago

That’s the steel-man version of (american) conservatism: civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government. And in terms of aggregate outcomes, Utah’s results are impressive. The LDS apparently does a better job teaching kids to read than the government here in Maryland.

Sabinus 2y ago
>civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government Now that the internet has destroyed local community and trust in institutions, what will conservatism do?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jedberg 2y ago
> Utah achieves great aggregate outcomes even compared to states that spend a lot more money That's because you're not counting the money the church spends to replace government programs, which in Utah is significant.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Utah has less money to start with, though. It doesn’t have big industries or things like that. Median income is $40,000 versus about $50,000 in Maryland and Massachusetts.
voidhorse 2y ago
Yeah, but extremely regressive views on equality and women's rights come along with it.... You can get a lot done when you establish regressive control structures for enforcement. Generally speaking, most people usually don't want that trade-off.

bennettnate5 2y ago

> and only applies to their believers (who happen to concentrate in Utah) Worth noting here that the church additionally spends north of $1 billion annually on humanitarian aid across the globe [1] (separate from the redistributions to the poor mentioned by OP). Aid is provided independent of religious affiliation. [1] https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-services https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-...

bink 2y ago
Al Capone ran soup kitchens. He seemed like a good dude. What percentage of their global wealth is $1 billion? I wish I knew but for some reason they keep that a secret. And don't leave or they'll expect your family to cut you off. *: searches suggest the wealth of the church to be around $265 billion. So their members give 10% annually to the church and the church gives less than 0.5% of their total wealth to the poor (but mostly to other Mormons or prospective converts). If you're wondering why they keep this massive horde of wealth, it's because they think it'll be needed for the apocalypse. Yes, it's for the apocalypse.

krupan 2y ago

Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate. Socialism is government-forced redistribution of wealth. A large majority of Mormons, at least in Utah, are very much opposed to that. You are correct that a large majority of Mormons voluntarily share their wealth with the poor and needy. You are incorrect saying that you have to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the actual name of the "Mormon church") to receive these benefits. In some cases there will be conditions, like if you want to attend one of the church universities you will need to promise to abstain from alcohol (one example), but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required

jedberg 2y ago
> Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate I would say it's very accurate. They are forced to share their wealth to get into the Kingdom of God. The only choice they have is to not go to heaven. I'd say that's being forced, just by a different power. > but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required You don't get the BYU discount unless you're baptized.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think you are missing the key element, that socialism isnt just a structure or institution, but a government policy and applied to all people within a society. It is neither optional or excludable. This is why the monopoly man choosing to share caviar with his family or paying dues to a yacht club does not make them a socialist. The monopoly man retains full agency over who they share with.
- krupan 2y ago
  That's pretty different than getting arrested and thrown in jail by government thugs for not paying up, whether you believe in the cause or not, but ok? Even the non-member BYU tuition is subsidized and a much lower price than other comparable colleges. But really, BYU is not the best example of Mormon charity, it can only accommodate a limited number of students.