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In the researchers’ publication, they didn’t substantiate the claim that chimpanzees are doing engineering (actually they didn’t even define what engineering is

In the researchers’ publication, they didn’t substantiate the claim that chimpanzees are doing engineering (actually they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it). They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.

GeoAtreides 2y ago
am I taking crazy pills? the researchers' publication[1] is literally called: "Engineering skills in the manufacture of tools by wild chimpanzees" Literally "Engineering skills". The graphical abstract: https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0effe8a7-6b76-4395-b576-65f262d8069c/main.assets/fx1_lrg.jpg https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0e... > "Chimpanzees show a degree of engineering acumen in the selection of plant materials for toolmaking." > engineering acumen [1] https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5 https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5
- Hobadee 2y ago
  Just because it's in the title, doesn't mean the paper supports it. I just skimmed the summary, but didn't notice any proof of "engineering". How do we know that chimpanzees weren't just selecting materials that had a good outcome in the past via trial and error? Or know that "more flexible=more food"? I would say that true engineering requires an inate understanding of the concepts going into the design, and I didn't notice anything in the summary to support that claim.
  - GeoAtreides 2y ago
    First, 'proof' is the wrong word to use here. That aside... Sure, let me read the paper for you, why not. >Given the wide range of inter- and intra-species variation of plant structural and mechanical properties, and that such physical properties could influence the functionality of a constructed tool, we hypothesize that the structural and mechanical properties of plant material may be a selection criterion used by chimpanzees when making their tools. >Our results indicate that the mechanics of plant tissues are a factor in selecting materials for the construction of termite fishing probes by Gombe chimpanzees, notably low EI and reduced E. The selection of tool materials based on specific physical properties has already been described in the use of stone tools by nonhuman primates.7,8,11,12,61 Our research therefore extends the technological knowhow of wild chimpanzees to their toolmaking behavior. You'll forgive me if I don't paste the whole paper in here, it's pretty long, and full of math formulas.
oh_my_goodness 2y ago
'they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it' Do you mean literally "I don't understand why it would be significant if animals were doing engineering." ...?
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Well, it depends on what the definition of engineering is, whether we’re surprised to see animals do it, right? “They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.”

GeoAtreides 2y ago

am I taking crazy pills? the researchers' publication[1] is literally called: "Engineering skills in the manufacture of tools by wild chimpanzees" Literally "Engineering skills". The graphical abstract: https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0effe8a7-6b76-4395-b576-65f262d8069c/main.assets/fx1_lrg.jpg https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0e... > "Chimpanzees show a degree of engineering acumen in the selection of plant materials for toolmaking." > engineering acumen [1] https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5 https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5

Hobadee 2y ago
Just because it's in the title, doesn't mean the paper supports it. I just skimmed the summary, but didn't notice any proof of "engineering". How do we know that chimpanzees weren't just selecting materials that had a good outcome in the past via trial and error? Or know that "more flexible=more food"? I would say that true engineering requires an inate understanding of the concepts going into the design, and I didn't notice anything in the summary to support that claim.
- GeoAtreides 2y ago
  First, 'proof' is the wrong word to use here. That aside... Sure, let me read the paper for you, why not. >Given the wide range of inter- and intra-species variation of plant structural and mechanical properties, and that such physical properties could influence the functionality of a constructed tool, we hypothesize that the structural and mechanical properties of plant material may be a selection criterion used by chimpanzees when making their tools. >Our results indicate that the mechanics of plant tissues are a factor in selecting materials for the construction of termite fishing probes by Gombe chimpanzees, notably low EI and reduced E. The selection of tool materials based on specific physical properties has already been described in the use of stone tools by nonhuman primates.7,8,11,12,61 Our research therefore extends the technological knowhow of wild chimpanzees to their toolmaking behavior. You'll forgive me if I don't paste the whole paper in here, it's pretty long, and full of math formulas.

oh_my_goodness 2y ago

'they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it' Do you mean literally "I don't understand why it would be significant if animals were doing engineering." ...?

bee_rider 2y ago
Well, it depends on what the definition of engineering is, whether we’re surprised to see animals do it, right? “They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.”