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> A multidisciplinary team of researchers from the School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography at the University of Oxford, the Max Planck Institute for Evolu

> A multidisciplinary team of researchers from the School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography at the University of Oxford, the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, the Jane Goodall Institute in Tanzania, the University of Algarve and the University of Porto in Portugal, and the University of Leipzig, so, i have a question; do you think the team of researchers above have no idea what they're doing? these are the people that studied and published the posted research. Do their credentials mean nothing to you? i so despise this kind of drive-by comments, that just react to the title without reading the article, without being curious at all, empty snarkiness just for a bit of extra karma points. And in the process casting doubt and derisiveness on the scientific process and on the people that dedicate their life to extending human knowledge.

bee_rider 2y ago
In the researchers’ publication, they didn’t substantiate the claim that chimpanzees are doing engineering (actually they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it). They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.
- GeoAtreides 2y ago
  am I taking crazy pills? the researchers' publication[1] is literally called: "Engineering skills in the manufacture of tools by wild chimpanzees" Literally "Engineering skills". The graphical abstract: https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0effe8a7-6b76-4395-b576-65f262d8069c/main.assets/fx1_lrg.jpg https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0e... > "Chimpanzees show a degree of engineering acumen in the selection of plant materials for toolmaking." > engineering acumen [1] https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5 https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5
  - Hobadee 2y ago
    Just because it's in the title, doesn't mean the paper supports it. I just skimmed the summary, but didn't notice any proof of "engineering". How do we know that chimpanzees weren't just selecting materials that had a good outcome in the past via trial and error? Or know that "more flexible=more food"? I would say that true engineering requires an inate understanding of the concepts going into the design, and I didn't notice anything in the summary to support that claim.
    - GeoAtreides 2y ago
      First, 'proof' is the wrong word to use here. That aside... Sure, let me read the paper for you, why not. >Given the wide range of inter- and intra-species variation of plant structural and mechanical properties, and that such physical properties could influence the functionality of a constructed tool, we hypothesize that the structural and mechanical properties of plant material may be a selection criterion used by chimpanzees when making their tools. >Our results indicate that the mechanics of plant tissues are a factor in selecting materials for the construction of termite fishing probes by Gombe chimpanzees, notably low EI and reduced E. The selection of tool materials based on specific physical properties has already been described in the use of stone tools by nonhuman primates.7,8,11,12,61 Our research therefore extends the technological knowhow of wild chimpanzees to their toolmaking behavior. You'll forgive me if I don't paste the whole paper in here, it's pretty long, and full of math formulas.
- oh_my_goodness 2y ago
  'they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it' Do you mean literally "I don't understand why it would be significant if animals were doing engineering." ...?
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Well, it depends on what the definition of engineering is, whether we’re surprised to see animals do it, right? “They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.”
bell-cot 2y ago
I assume the researchers know perfectly well what they're doing...but "what they're doing" is much closer to "padding their publication counts" than it is to "making non-trivial scientific discoveries", or "responsible use of limited research funding". Anyone even slightly familiar with the arboreal habits of chimpanzees would realize that those alone would require them to have excellent judgement for the flexibility and strength of long, thin parts of plants. Otherwise, they'd often trust a too-weak branch, and be injured or killed in falls. In a human world where the validity and value of science are sadly controversial, neither arguments from authority, nor 'how dare you cast doubt' objections, seem compatible with the long term well-being of science.
- GeoAtreides 2y ago
  It's not an argument from authority fallacy if the authority is an authority in the respective argument. 'How dare you cast doubt' is pretty valid when you're an anonymous poster on HN casting doubt on tenured professors from some of the most prestigious universities in the world.

bee_rider 2y ago

In the researchers’ publication, they didn’t substantiate the claim that chimpanzees are doing engineering (actually they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it). They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.

GeoAtreides 2y ago
am I taking crazy pills? the researchers' publication[1] is literally called: "Engineering skills in the manufacture of tools by wild chimpanzees" Literally "Engineering skills". The graphical abstract: https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0effe8a7-6b76-4395-b576-65f262d8069c/main.assets/fx1_lrg.jpg https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.isci.2025.112158/asset/0e... > "Chimpanzees show a degree of engineering acumen in the selection of plant materials for toolmaking." > engineering acumen [1] https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5 https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(25)00419-5
- Hobadee 2y ago
  Just because it's in the title, doesn't mean the paper supports it. I just skimmed the summary, but didn't notice any proof of "engineering". How do we know that chimpanzees weren't just selecting materials that had a good outcome in the past via trial and error? Or know that "more flexible=more food"? I would say that true engineering requires an inate understanding of the concepts going into the design, and I didn't notice anything in the summary to support that claim.
  - GeoAtreides 2y ago
    First, 'proof' is the wrong word to use here. That aside... Sure, let me read the paper for you, why not. >Given the wide range of inter- and intra-species variation of plant structural and mechanical properties, and that such physical properties could influence the functionality of a constructed tool, we hypothesize that the structural and mechanical properties of plant material may be a selection criterion used by chimpanzees when making their tools. >Our results indicate that the mechanics of plant tissues are a factor in selecting materials for the construction of termite fishing probes by Gombe chimpanzees, notably low EI and reduced E. The selection of tool materials based on specific physical properties has already been described in the use of stone tools by nonhuman primates.7,8,11,12,61 Our research therefore extends the technological knowhow of wild chimpanzees to their toolmaking behavior. You'll forgive me if I don't paste the whole paper in here, it's pretty long, and full of math formulas.
oh_my_goodness 2y ago
'they didn’t even define what engineering is or why it would be significant if the chimpanzees were doing it' Do you mean literally "I don't understand why it would be significant if animals were doing engineering." ...?
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Well, it depends on what the definition of engineering is, whether we’re surprised to see animals do it, right? “They document some interesting tool-making behavior, that the chimpanzees are somewhat picky about the material properties of the sticks they use to catch ants.”

bell-cot 2y ago

I assume the researchers know perfectly well what they're doing...but "what they're doing" is much closer to "padding their publication counts" than it is to "making non-trivial scientific discoveries", or "responsible use of limited research funding". Anyone even slightly familiar with the arboreal habits of chimpanzees would realize that those alone would require them to have excellent judgement for the flexibility and strength of long, thin parts of plants. Otherwise, they'd often trust a too-weak branch, and be injured or killed in falls. In a human world where the validity and value of science are sadly controversial, neither arguments from authority, nor 'how dare you cast doubt' objections, seem compatible with the long term well-being of science.

GeoAtreides 2y ago
It's not an argument from authority fallacy if the authority is an authority in the respective argument. 'How dare you cast doubt' is pretty valid when you're an anonymous poster on HN casting doubt on tenured professors from some of the most prestigious universities in the world.