3 ms·

There's SO much wrong with what you're saying. I hate that these things happen too, but ... stop the absurd hyperbole. This isn't criminal prosecution in any wa

by spwa4 2y ago

There's SO much wrong with what you're saying. I hate that these things happen too, but ... stop the absurd hyperbole. This isn't criminal prosecution in any way shape or form. 1) ZERO citizenships are being "decreed invalid". I don't know where you get any ideas to the opposite. 2) revoking a visa does not involve a trial. ANY border control officer can do that, for any reason, including for no reason. This has always happened, including under Biden or Obama, only the reasons have changed (a bit) 3) only removing a green card requires "a trial". It's specified between scare quotes because it is called a trial but is NOT subject to the normal rules of justice (to give one extreme example: you do not have the right to a jury trial, you don't even have the right to be present at trial). The judges are employees of the executive (hired and fired, NOT appointed) and thus under the control of the executive (ie. Trump). It's definitely a step up from the visa "process" but ... It's like "youth court". It's called a trial. It happens in a courtroom. In youth court, the judges are actual judges. BUT IT'S NOT A TRIAL. You don't have the right to defense. You don't have the right to a jury trial (or the same as immigration, you don't even have the right to be present). 4) You can leave ICE detention by "self-removing". This involves proving you've booked a flight, and they will bring you to the airport to catch your flight. So you're not detained. 5) this is just utterly ridiculous: "One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person" Yes. But these are NOT trials (even the green card removal isn't). To get US citizenship you must prove yourself for, at minimum, 10 years, often more, the the executive of the US government. 6) I would ALSO like to point out that what Trump is doing is the norm in the whole world. Including in Europe. In the Netherlands, protesting while on a VISA is stupid, and if you get arrested, you will be removed. Maybe not the first time, but it will happen. I hear France is the same.

cogman10 2y ago
1) Hasn't happened that I'm aware of, it's definitely something trump is loudly signalling he wants to do. Even issuing executive orders about it. [1] 2) Fair point. 3) You still have a right to appeal unfavorable determinations. 4) This assumes the ICE agents are following the laws. I don't believe they are. 5) Even as someone caught by ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim this was a false arrest. ICE may have extra enforcement capabilities over non-citizens, it cannot hold citizens. 6) One of the most recent deportees, Rumeysa Ozturk, didn't protest. She wrote an op ed [2]. Further, ICE violated judicial orders not to deport. [3] [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trump-resumes-threat-to-denaturalize-citizens/77905612007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trum... [2] https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj [3] https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-university-arrest-saturday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...
- dlubarov 2y ago
  AFAIK the state has not explained why Ozturk's visa was terminated. The idea that it was because of an op-ed seems to be speculation by her supporters. I wouldn't be confident that a better justification exists, but we shouldn't make assumptions.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    To me, this is entirely problematic thinking. Having the state police arrest people without an explanation is in and of itself evil. Citizen or no. So yeah, I'm going to make the worst assumption about why they are doing this because they should have to explain themselves. We still, presumably, live in a democracy where the state is accountable to the people. Letting the state police remove civil rights for opaque reasons should always be treated as them doing it for the worst possible reasons.
    - dlubarov 2y ago
      On what basis are you asserting that no explanation for her detainment was provided? Or by explanation, do you mean a public announcement? But let's say for the sake of argument that no explanation was provided, even privately to her and her attorney. I would agree that's bad, even if it's legal in the case of visa holders. But why should that cause us to make assumptions about the reason? And if we're going to make assumptions, why this particular one? Why not assume she was detained because an officer didn't like the color of her shoes?
- spwa4 2y ago
  "... ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim ..." Which is exactly what your example Rumeysa Oztruk is doing, and ICE seems to be respecting the order. Which undercuts your point number 4 a bit. If she asked to leave detention by leaving the US, would ICE stop her, and forcibly keep her in detention? I'm going to assume "no" ... why would ICE violate one inconvenient law, but respect another? ICE could make the argument she is only in detention because she explicitly asked for it, that she is only detained because she delayed her deportation. But more than that, I think Rumeysa Ozturk is yet another example of someone who just won't get support from people. She's a rich kid being given an easy path in life, yelling loudly how bad the people helping her are, and ... good luck defending that one in an economy where people are losing jobs. Probably she's here on the dime of her parents, with a scholarship (a PhD IS a scholarship, a subsidy, so there's really just a question of how much it covers), with the goal of letting her immigrate into the US and get a better job, better life, here than she could ever hope to get in Turkey ... the world is extremely UNfair, and she is the benefactor of enormous unfairness. Given what has happened to the economy in the past few years, and how many people have experienced setbacks 10x worse than losing a free and easy path in life. To some extent people don't seem to realize "you want the right for an easy path in life for people in X (Turkey, China, Gaza, ...). Fine, Great even, but the US government FIRST must create such path for everyone in Appalachia. You want it done for Turks? Great. I even agree that that should be done. But not by the US government, by the Turkish government" And yes this is a "if I can't have it, you can't have it either" argument, and it is mean, jealous and vindictive ... but Rumeysa's defense is essentially "let them eat cake". She has support from the US government for her education, which many locals don't have (and many MAGA are going to say a student in education sciences isn't helping the US, she's just taking jobs and subsidies away from US people. This isn't entirely untrue. She is not an exceptional talent that will elevate the US, economically or politically, or even in sport, or otherwise. In other words, she's "wasting" the US government support she's receiving, bluntly why shouldn't US citizens have first dibs on wasting US government support?) In that situation she goes out writing op-ed, complaining, doing what the executive (even under Biden) would consider sabotaging US government policy? sigh. Really? To add insult to injury, to put it VERY mildly, what is happening in Turkey, is still a lot worse than what is happening to her. The US doesn't seem to be able to count on Turkey's help to rectify those problems. She wants to fix the world, yell at a government? Then go join the yelling at Turkey's government, they have destroyed their universities, replacing all teachers with Erdogan loyalists, imprisoning tens of thousands just for holding a university job (and I guarantee every last teacher, assistant and student on a visa was deported from Turkey, regardless of their political stance). Turks, who supported that (she seems to care about religion, which in Turks is a near-guarantee that they support Erdogan). And then she loudly criticizes the US for using money and visa policy to influence university positions? (as opposed to what HER government does: arresting, imprisoning for decades, even torturing the entire faculty staff) So I also predict you will not see any real uprising against this until people can't make the argument "she could easily have avoided this in 10 different ways and effectively chose this path". It sucks, but you just won't.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
College students are bring approached by strange men with masks and being transported across the country. We're well past "hyperbole". It's literally happening around us. How about we treat humans like humans before we suddenly start legal nitpicking? It's not like these people are listening to actual legal authorities to begin with.

by spwa4 2y ago

cogman10 2y ago

1) Hasn't happened that I'm aware of, it's definitely something trump is loudly signalling he wants to do. Even issuing executive orders about it. [1] 2) Fair point. 3) You still have a right to appeal unfavorable determinations. 4) This assumes the ICE agents are following the laws. I don't believe they are. 5) Even as someone caught by ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim this was a false arrest. ICE may have extra enforcement capabilities over non-citizens, it cannot hold citizens. 6) One of the most recent deportees, Rumeysa Ozturk, didn't protest. She wrote an op ed [2]. Further, ICE violated judicial orders not to deport. [3] [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trump-resumes-threat-to-denaturalize-citizens/77905612007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trum... [2] https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj [3] https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-university-arrest-saturday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...

dlubarov 2y ago
AFAIK the state has not explained why Ozturk's visa was terminated. The idea that it was because of an op-ed seems to be speculation by her supporters. I wouldn't be confident that a better justification exists, but we shouldn't make assumptions.
- cogman10 2y ago
  To me, this is entirely problematic thinking. Having the state police arrest people without an explanation is in and of itself evil. Citizen or no. So yeah, I'm going to make the worst assumption about why they are doing this because they should have to explain themselves. We still, presumably, live in a democracy where the state is accountable to the people. Letting the state police remove civil rights for opaque reasons should always be treated as them doing it for the worst possible reasons.
  - dlubarov 2y ago
    On what basis are you asserting that no explanation for her detainment was provided? Or by explanation, do you mean a public announcement? But let's say for the sake of argument that no explanation was provided, even privately to her and her attorney. I would agree that's bad, even if it's legal in the case of visa holders. But why should that cause us to make assumptions about the reason? And if we're going to make assumptions, why this particular one? Why not assume she was detained because an officer didn't like the color of her shoes?
spwa4 2y ago
"... ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim ..." Which is exactly what your example Rumeysa Oztruk is doing, and ICE seems to be respecting the order. Which undercuts your point number 4 a bit. If she asked to leave detention by leaving the US, would ICE stop her, and forcibly keep her in detention? I'm going to assume "no" ... why would ICE violate one inconvenient law, but respect another? ICE could make the argument she is only in detention because she explicitly asked for it, that she is only detained because she delayed her deportation. But more than that, I think Rumeysa Ozturk is yet another example of someone who just won't get support from people. She's a rich kid being given an easy path in life, yelling loudly how bad the people helping her are, and ... good luck defending that one in an economy where people are losing jobs. Probably she's here on the dime of her parents, with a scholarship (a PhD IS a scholarship, a subsidy, so there's really just a question of how much it covers), with the goal of letting her immigrate into the US and get a better job, better life, here than she could ever hope to get in Turkey ... the world is extremely UNfair, and she is the benefactor of enormous unfairness. Given what has happened to the economy in the past few years, and how many people have experienced setbacks 10x worse than losing a free and easy path in life. To some extent people don't seem to realize "you want the right for an easy path in life for people in X (Turkey, China, Gaza, ...). Fine, Great even, but the US government FIRST must create such path for everyone in Appalachia. You want it done for Turks? Great. I even agree that that should be done. But not by the US government, by the Turkish government" And yes this is a "if I can't have it, you can't have it either" argument, and it is mean, jealous and vindictive ... but Rumeysa's defense is essentially "let them eat cake". She has support from the US government for her education, which many locals don't have (and many MAGA are going to say a student in education sciences isn't helping the US, she's just taking jobs and subsidies away from US people. This isn't entirely untrue. She is not an exceptional talent that will elevate the US, economically or politically, or even in sport, or otherwise. In other words, she's "wasting" the US government support she's receiving, bluntly why shouldn't US citizens have first dibs on wasting US government support?) In that situation she goes out writing op-ed, complaining, doing what the executive (even under Biden) would consider sabotaging US government policy? sigh. Really? To add insult to injury, to put it VERY mildly, what is happening in Turkey, is still a lot worse than what is happening to her. The US doesn't seem to be able to count on Turkey's help to rectify those problems. She wants to fix the world, yell at a government? Then go join the yelling at Turkey's government, they have destroyed their universities, replacing all teachers with Erdogan loyalists, imprisoning tens of thousands just for holding a university job (and I guarantee every last teacher, assistant and student on a visa was deported from Turkey, regardless of their political stance). Turks, who supported that (she seems to care about religion, which in Turks is a near-guarantee that they support Erdogan). And then she loudly criticizes the US for using money and visa policy to influence university positions? (as opposed to what HER government does: arresting, imprisoning for decades, even torturing the entire faculty staff) So I also predict you will not see any real uprising against this until people can't make the argument "she could easily have avoided this in 10 different ways and effectively chose this path". It sucks, but you just won't.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

College students are bring approached by strange men with masks and being transported across the country. We're well past "hyperbole". It's literally happening around us. How about we treat humans like humans before we suddenly start legal nitpicking? It's not like these people are listening to actual legal authorities to begin with.