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I considered that before posting, and I disagree. The Crown Jewels are genuinely priceless. Yes, “priceless” is common hyperbole, but the BBC claim to integri

by wrasee 2y ago

I considered that before posting, and I disagree. The Crown Jewels are genuinely priceless. Yes, “priceless” is common hyperbole, but the BBC claim to integrity and quality reporting just made me think that they might consider a more accurate title. We’ve come so far in normalising casual mis-reporting that this argument even needs to be backed up.

Xylakant 2y ago
I don’t think this portrait is any more or less priceless than the Crown Jewels. After all, the Crown Jewels are only a bunch of precious materials that an artist put together and have been associated with importance and uniqueness by (western) human history. Shakespeare is widely regarded as among the important artists in western history, so a genuine historic images would be important to many. Now, people from other cultures may just consider both rubbish and melt down the Crown Jewels for the raw materials - or hang the portrait over their fireplace. Priceless is always in the eye of the beholder.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wrasee 2y ago
  Right. And if a beholder beholds something with value that simply cannot be captured in a tradeable form (since to have a price implies it is tradable and For Sale) then no price exists for which a trade could exist. It would be literally priceless. I'm surprised I seem to be in the minority in disagreeing with the idea that "everything has a price", as if it's just a matter of finding a number high enough.
rafram 2y ago
The Crown Jewels are worth between 3 and 5 billion pounds. Look, if you read “priceless” in a headline about a painting and think it literally means that the painting has a vast, unknown value that can never be determined, that’s on you.
- wrasee 2y ago
  I'll bite. Suppose an imaginary private buyer was willing to buy the Crown Jewels for £5 billion. It's absurd to believe that the Royal Family would even entertain such an offer because (a) it's not like they would be incentivised by the money and (b) it would be a remarkable act of self-harm to the extent the deal would be so shockingly unpopular that it would only serve to threaten the Royal Family itself. So why on Earth would they agree to that? Responding "OK, how about £10 billion?" does nothing to resolve that calculus. In that sense, no price exists for which they could be sold - they are literally priceless. The idea they "are worth between 3 and 5 billion pounds" is so daft that I'm pretty sure you just got that from ChatGPT. Actually for fun i just asked: I got a material valuation of the stones at "several billion pounds if assessed purely by their material worth" (so about the same as your claim), but that "their true worth is incalculable". What's another word for a price that's incalculable?
  - rafram 2y ago
    Call me old-school, but I actually relied on the good old-fashioned media: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-much-crown-jewels-worth-king-charles-b1026773.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-much-crown-jewels-wor...
etempleton 2y ago
It is priceless in the sense that its value is an unknown and unset. If it were a true depiction of Shakespeare of the era then it would almost certainly become one of the most valuable paintings in the world. What is that price? Who knows. Whatever someone would be willing to pay. Might be 50 million might be a billion. Nobody knows. Any attempt to price it is just a guess. Therefore it is priceless. Its value has no upper bound.
- wrasee 2y ago
  A price that is unknown is simply "unpriced". Every sale is between two parties, the price is simply any agreed value that would result in a sale. So it's not just what someone is willing to pay, but also what someone is willing to sell for. If both those ranges don't overlap, no sale. I would argue a better definition of priceless is one in which no value could ever be discovered for which a sale could exist. Not because it is too high, but because there are constraints to that price equation (as governed by both parties) that overlap in such a way as there is simply no solution. Examples are obvious, but in the case of the the Crown Jewels, they are priceless because of their identity and their inseparable significance to the United Kingdom. There is no price for which decision makers could agree on and keep their jobs (or their head), to the extent that a sale could ever exist. In the eyes of the public, the Monarchy itself would be at stake. In that sense the Crown Jewels are priceless, literally without price. If this painting were genuine i don't think there's anything that would stop the seller from being able to agree on a price that would enable them to sell it.

by wrasee 2y ago

Xylakant 2y ago

I don’t think this portrait is any more or less priceless than the Crown Jewels. After all, the Crown Jewels are only a bunch of precious materials that an artist put together and have been associated with importance and uniqueness by (western) human history. Shakespeare is widely regarded as among the important artists in western history, so a genuine historic images would be important to many. Now, people from other cultures may just consider both rubbish and melt down the Crown Jewels for the raw materials - or hang the portrait over their fireplace. Priceless is always in the eye of the beholder.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wrasee 2y ago
Right. And if a beholder beholds something with value that simply cannot be captured in a tradeable form (since to have a price implies it is tradable and For Sale) then no price exists for which a trade could exist. It would be literally priceless. I'm surprised I seem to be in the minority in disagreeing with the idea that "everything has a price", as if it's just a matter of finding a number high enough.

rafram 2y ago

The Crown Jewels are worth between 3 and 5 billion pounds. Look, if you read “priceless” in a headline about a painting and think it literally means that the painting has a vast, unknown value that can never be determined, that’s on you.

wrasee 2y ago
I'll bite. Suppose an imaginary private buyer was willing to buy the Crown Jewels for £5 billion. It's absurd to believe that the Royal Family would even entertain such an offer because (a) it's not like they would be incentivised by the money and (b) it would be a remarkable act of self-harm to the extent the deal would be so shockingly unpopular that it would only serve to threaten the Royal Family itself. So why on Earth would they agree to that? Responding "OK, how about £10 billion?" does nothing to resolve that calculus. In that sense, no price exists for which they could be sold - they are literally priceless. The idea they "are worth between 3 and 5 billion pounds" is so daft that I'm pretty sure you just got that from ChatGPT. Actually for fun i just asked: I got a material valuation of the stones at "several billion pounds if assessed purely by their material worth" (so about the same as your claim), but that "their true worth is incalculable". What's another word for a price that's incalculable?
- rafram 2y ago
  Call me old-school, but I actually relied on the good old-fashioned media: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-much-crown-jewels-worth-king-charles-b1026773.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-much-crown-jewels-wor...

etempleton 2y ago

It is priceless in the sense that its value is an unknown and unset. If it were a true depiction of Shakespeare of the era then it would almost certainly become one of the most valuable paintings in the world. What is that price? Who knows. Whatever someone would be willing to pay. Might be 50 million might be a billion. Nobody knows. Any attempt to price it is just a guess. Therefore it is priceless. Its value has no upper bound.

wrasee 2y ago
A price that is unknown is simply "unpriced". Every sale is between two parties, the price is simply any agreed value that would result in a sale. So it's not just what someone is willing to pay, but also what someone is willing to sell for. If both those ranges don't overlap, no sale. I would argue a better definition of priceless is one in which no value could ever be discovered for which a sale could exist. Not because it is too high, but because there are constraints to that price equation (as governed by both parties) that overlap in such a way as there is simply no solution. Examples are obvious, but in the case of the the Crown Jewels, they are priceless because of their identity and their inseparable significance to the United Kingdom. There is no price for which decision makers could agree on and keep their jobs (or their head), to the extent that a sale could ever exist. In the eyes of the public, the Monarchy itself would be at stake. In that sense the Crown Jewels are priceless, literally without price. If this painting were genuine i don't think there's anything that would stop the seller from being able to agree on a price that would enable them to sell it.