4 ms·

I don't agree with your characterization, but fine let me grant it for now. The current issue isn't the US deporting or revoking visas. The issue is there's a

I don't agree with your characterization, but fine let me grant it for now. The current issue isn't the US deporting or revoking visas. The issue is there's a process to both do that, which involves a trial, and a process to deport, which also involves a trial. Neither of those are happening. Instead, the admin is unilaterally decreeing a visa or citizenship is invalid and then they are rushing individuals across the country with promises of a direct flight to El Salvador. One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person.

bko 2y ago
[flagged]
- cogman10 2y ago
  > if this were citizens I'd be on your side. How do you know they aren't? There was no trial to determine that these people even have visas, it's just the accusations of the administration. The admin is additionally working hard to try and shield who they are deporting.
- Paradigma11 2y ago
  So, foreign journalists should better be careful what they write or say? Can foreign spouses of US activists be deported for being associated with them? But yes, the current US administration is drifting into the same category as China or Russia.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Thankfully, the writers of the 5th and 14th Amendments foresaw this and specifically chose to use "any person" instead of any citizen. [0] [1] Ergo, all peoples within the United States are entitled to their due process. This administration is welcome to push for a constitutional amendment to strip due process rights from non-citizens, if they'd like to change the law. [0] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8-7-2/ALDE_00001262/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8... [1] https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendments https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendment... > I just don't like people taking advantage of the permissive immigration system in the US that me and so many others have benefited from. That every American without native American heritage has.
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  If you skip over the trial (or other checks) portion, you can't be sure they aren't citizens. That's part of the point. That why you extend rights to everyone, so a political party can't use the excuse of "oh, it's ok, they weren't citizens". Otherwise, it's it's a group of people collecting un-named people, deporting them, and them saying "trust us, we got it right".
spwa4 2y ago
There's SO much wrong with what you're saying. I hate that these things happen too, but ... stop the absurd hyperbole. This isn't criminal prosecution in any way shape or form. 1) ZERO citizenships are being "decreed invalid". I don't know where you get any ideas to the opposite. 2) revoking a visa does not involve a trial. ANY border control officer can do that, for any reason, including for no reason. This has always happened, including under Biden or Obama, only the reasons have changed (a bit) 3) only removing a green card requires "a trial". It's specified between scare quotes because it is called a trial but is NOT subject to the normal rules of justice (to give one extreme example: you do not have the right to a jury trial, you don't even have the right to be present at trial). The judges are employees of the executive (hired and fired, NOT appointed) and thus under the control of the executive (ie. Trump). It's definitely a step up from the visa "process" but ... It's like "youth court". It's called a trial. It happens in a courtroom. In youth court, the judges are actual judges. BUT IT'S NOT A TRIAL. You don't have the right to defense. You don't have the right to a jury trial (or the same as immigration, you don't even have the right to be present). 4) You can leave ICE detention by "self-removing". This involves proving you've booked a flight, and they will bring you to the airport to catch your flight. So you're not detained. 5) this is just utterly ridiculous: "One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person" Yes. But these are NOT trials (even the green card removal isn't). To get US citizenship you must prove yourself for, at minimum, 10 years, often more, the the executive of the US government. 6) I would ALSO like to point out that what Trump is doing is the norm in the whole world. Including in Europe. In the Netherlands, protesting while on a VISA is stupid, and if you get arrested, you will be removed. Maybe not the first time, but it will happen. I hear France is the same.
- cogman10 2y ago
  1) Hasn't happened that I'm aware of, it's definitely something trump is loudly signalling he wants to do. Even issuing executive orders about it. [1] 2) Fair point. 3) You still have a right to appeal unfavorable determinations. 4) This assumes the ICE agents are following the laws. I don't believe they are. 5) Even as someone caught by ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim this was a false arrest. ICE may have extra enforcement capabilities over non-citizens, it cannot hold citizens. 6) One of the most recent deportees, Rumeysa Ozturk, didn't protest. She wrote an op ed [2]. Further, ICE violated judicial orders not to deport. [3] [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trump-resumes-threat-to-denaturalize-citizens/77905612007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trum... [2] https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj [3] https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-university-arrest-saturday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...

bko 2y ago

[flagged]

cogman10 2y ago
> if this were citizens I'd be on your side. How do you know they aren't? There was no trial to determine that these people even have visas, it's just the accusations of the administration. The admin is additionally working hard to try and shield who they are deporting.
Paradigma11 2y ago
So, foreign journalists should better be careful what they write or say? Can foreign spouses of US activists be deported for being associated with them? But yes, the current US administration is drifting into the same category as China or Russia.
ethbr1 2y ago
Thankfully, the writers of the 5th and 14th Amendments foresaw this and specifically chose to use "any person" instead of any citizen. [0] [1] Ergo, all peoples within the United States are entitled to their due process. This administration is welcome to push for a constitutional amendment to strip due process rights from non-citizens, if they'd like to change the law. [0] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8-7-2/ALDE_00001262/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8... [1] https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendments https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendment... > I just don't like people taking advantage of the permissive immigration system in the US that me and so many others have benefited from. That every American without native American heritage has.
xboxnolifes 2y ago
If you skip over the trial (or other checks) portion, you can't be sure they aren't citizens. That's part of the point. That why you extend rights to everyone, so a political party can't use the excuse of "oh, it's ok, they weren't citizens". Otherwise, it's it's a group of people collecting un-named people, deporting them, and them saying "trust us, we got it right".

spwa4 2y ago

There's SO much wrong with what you're saying. I hate that these things happen too, but ... stop the absurd hyperbole. This isn't criminal prosecution in any way shape or form. 1) ZERO citizenships are being "decreed invalid". I don't know where you get any ideas to the opposite. 2) revoking a visa does not involve a trial. ANY border control officer can do that, for any reason, including for no reason. This has always happened, including under Biden or Obama, only the reasons have changed (a bit) 3) only removing a green card requires "a trial". It's specified between scare quotes because it is called a trial but is NOT subject to the normal rules of justice (to give one extreme example: you do not have the right to a jury trial, you don't even have the right to be present at trial). The judges are employees of the executive (hired and fired, NOT appointed) and thus under the control of the executive (ie. Trump). It's definitely a step up from the visa "process" but ... It's like "youth court". It's called a trial. It happens in a courtroom. In youth court, the judges are actual judges. BUT IT'S NOT A TRIAL. You don't have the right to defense. You don't have the right to a jury trial (or the same as immigration, you don't even have the right to be present). 4) You can leave ICE detention by "self-removing". This involves proving you've booked a flight, and they will bring you to the airport to catch your flight. So you're not detained. 5) this is just utterly ridiculous: "One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person" Yes. But these are NOT trials (even the green card removal isn't). To get US citizenship you must prove yourself for, at minimum, 10 years, often more, the the executive of the US government. 6) I would ALSO like to point out that what Trump is doing is the norm in the whole world. Including in Europe. In the Netherlands, protesting while on a VISA is stupid, and if you get arrested, you will be removed. Maybe not the first time, but it will happen. I hear France is the same.

cogman10 2y ago
1) Hasn't happened that I'm aware of, it's definitely something trump is loudly signalling he wants to do. Even issuing executive orders about it. [1] 2) Fair point. 3) You still have a right to appeal unfavorable determinations. 4) This assumes the ICE agents are following the laws. I don't believe they are. 5) Even as someone caught by ICE you still have the rights to an attorney and you have legal rights to claim this was a false arrest. ICE may have extra enforcement capabilities over non-citizens, it cannot hold citizens. 6) One of the most recent deportees, Rumeysa Ozturk, didn't protest. She wrote an op ed [2]. Further, ICE violated judicial orders not to deport. [3] [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trump-resumes-threat-to-denaturalize-citizens/77905612007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trum... [2] https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj [3] https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-university-arrest-saturday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...