4 ms·

I'm concerned about this as well. If this keeps progressing, we could see a monoculture develop among elite institutions and media where the shots are being cal

by bko 2y ago

I'm concerned about this as well. If this keeps progressing, we could see a monoculture develop among elite institutions and media where the shots are being called by three letter agencies. We could get to a place where federal agencies are working directly with social media companies to coordinate censorship of dissent and set speech guidelines. If they don't oblige they'll be threatened with arbitrary enforcement and getting dragged out in front of Congress. Eventually there could be an entire political capture of these social media companies, universities, journalists, NGOS etc where 90%+ of its employees subscribe to one political party . But it gets even worse. If this continues we could see activist judges try to throw political rivals in jail. They would even change the law in order to try to get them to go to prison, combining misdemeanors into felonies. And this says nothing about the rhetoric. By casting political opponents as villains, this invites assassination attempts and general lawlessness to intimidate people perceived as not falling in line. By this point the media will be complicit so there will be no investigation into these activities. Even a failed assassination attempt would be at most a few day story with no reporting on motive or coordination. I too am very concerned about all of this.

cogman10 2y ago
So the final solution is a masked police force abducting people off the streets and rushing them onto a flight to a death camp in El Salvador? I get you are being cute, but let's be real. Nothing "the left" did compares to this.
- bko 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    This comment is propaganda. Protests can wave the Palestinian flag as protected speech. On Jan 6, the appearance of support for Camp Auschwitz was also protected speech.
    - f38zf5vdt 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - cogman10 2y ago
    I don't agree with your characterization, but fine let me grant it for now. The current issue isn't the US deporting or revoking visas. The issue is there's a process to both do that, which involves a trial, and a process to deport, which also involves a trial. Neither of those are happening. Instead, the admin is unilaterally decreeing a visa or citizenship is invalid and then they are rushing individuals across the country with promises of a direct flight to El Salvador. One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person.
    - bko 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - cogman10 2y ago
        > if this were citizens I'd be on your side. How do you know they aren't? There was no trial to determine that these people even have visas, it's just the accusations of the administration. The admin is additionally working hard to try and shield who they are deporting.
      - Paradigma11 2y ago
        So, foreign journalists should better be careful what they write or say? Can foreign spouses of US activists be deported for being associated with them? But yes, the current US administration is drifting into the same category as China or Russia.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Thankfully, the writers of the 5th and 14th Amendments foresaw this and specifically chose to use "any person" instead of any citizen. [0] [1] Ergo, all peoples within the United States are entitled to their due process. This administration is welcome to push for a constitutional amendment to strip due process rights from non-citizens, if they'd like to change the law. [0] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8-7-2/ALDE_00001262/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8... [1] https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendments https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendment... > I just don't like people taking advantage of the permissive immigration system in the US that me and so many others have benefited from. That every American without native American heritage has.
  - yubblegum 2y ago
    No evidence has been presented that any of these individuals "support Hamas". Protesting against Israel's killing spree in Gaza is not supporting "terrorism", it is arguably protest against a form of state terrorism. Disregarding legal directives of judiciary is another aspect of these events that is highly concerning. Freedom of speech, rule of law, not having an (unofficial) aristocracy, and undivided loyalty for our nation (alone) are (were?) the essence of American values. > I think it's entirely reasonable to rethink our relationship with the people that are obviously exploiting the process. That is irony for you folks. I'll let you do the thinking on the unspoken matter here.
f38zf5vdt 2y ago
"Let's do all of this, but much worse, with more corruption, and more violently" is a weird response to perceived political grievances. Like how Leninist critiques of the Russian monarchy and subsequent revolution lead to a system at least as bad as that of the Tsar. If you want to deconstruct the status quo, make sure that your outcomes will be actually be better for you. Even Stalin ended up as a victim of his regime at the end of days, his physician ending up arrested and being interrogated while his health declined.
archagon 2y ago
I don’t quite recall Biden storming the Capitol, phoning politicians to “find votes,” and sending in a slate of fake electors to subvert the democratic process. But sure, the “activist judges” and their “lawfare” are the real problem here. Not, say, Judge Cannon punting and deferring rock-solid cases without precedent until it’s too late. Fucking horseshit.
hypeatei 2y ago
> where federal agencies are working directly with social media companies When did this happen? If you're referring to the "Twitter files", then you're take on this is very misinformed and the government did not coerce Twitter to suppress the laptop story. It was even found that Republicans submitted so many similar requests that Twitter had to keep a special database to track those requests. The right wing has a weird persecution complex while they have the biggest cable news network in the US (Fox News), just got control of all three branches of government, and had a billionaire buy Twitter for them to help their guy win. Will you only be satisfied if everyone agrees with you and drinks the Trump kool-aid? Also note that the "other" political party you're referring to didn't deny the election results and try to overthrow the government.
jhp123 2y ago
There is an old documentary called "the Revolution will not be Televised" about the Chavez presidency in Venezuela. If you watch it you will come away feeling that Chavez was treated pretty unfairly by the rightist media and "deep state" who attempted to overthrow his Presidency. But even if that is true, it is also true that Chavez took many actions to centralize power, erode democratic safeguards in the Constitution, control the media and destroy the opposition parties. Every step was justified by pointing to the horrible rightist conspiracy against Chavez. But the end result was a dictatorship and the absolute ruin of the Venezuelan state. This is normal for dictators. Many cast themselves as victims. Stalin was pressed on all sides by Capitalists, Kulaks, and Trotskyists. Hitler, of course, by Jews and Communists. Whether the accusations are pure fantasy or rooted in some level of real persecution of the movement, it is very important not to allow them to be used to justify the establishment of tyranny.

by bko 2y ago

cogman10 2y ago

So the final solution is a masked police force abducting people off the streets and rushing them onto a flight to a death camp in El Salvador? I get you are being cute, but let's be real. Nothing "the left" did compares to this.

bko 2y ago
[flagged]
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  This comment is propaganda. Protests can wave the Palestinian flag as protected speech. On Jan 6, the appearance of support for Camp Auschwitz was also protected speech.
  - f38zf5vdt 2y ago
    [flagged]
- cogman10 2y ago
  I don't agree with your characterization, but fine let me grant it for now. The current issue isn't the US deporting or revoking visas. The issue is there's a process to both do that, which involves a trial, and a process to deport, which also involves a trial. Neither of those are happening. Instead, the admin is unilaterally decreeing a visa or citizenship is invalid and then they are rushing individuals across the country with promises of a direct flight to El Salvador. One of the many reasons we have trials is to ensure that the agency actually caught the right person.
  - bko 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - cogman10 2y ago
      > if this were citizens I'd be on your side. How do you know they aren't? There was no trial to determine that these people even have visas, it's just the accusations of the administration. The admin is additionally working hard to try and shield who they are deporting.
    - Paradigma11 2y ago
      So, foreign journalists should better be careful what they write or say? Can foreign spouses of US activists be deported for being associated with them? But yes, the current US administration is drifting into the same category as China or Russia.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Thankfully, the writers of the 5th and 14th Amendments foresaw this and specifically chose to use "any person" instead of any citizen. [0] [1] Ergo, all peoples within the United States are entitled to their due process. This administration is welcome to push for a constitutional amendment to strip due process rights from non-citizens, if they'd like to change the law. [0] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8-7-2/ALDE_00001262/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C18-8... [1] https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendments https://www.finduslaw.com/us-constitution-5th-14th-amendment... > I just don't like people taking advantage of the permissive immigration system in the US that me and so many others have benefited from. That every American without native American heritage has.
- yubblegum 2y ago
  No evidence has been presented that any of these individuals "support Hamas". Protesting against Israel's killing spree in Gaza is not supporting "terrorism", it is arguably protest against a form of state terrorism. Disregarding legal directives of judiciary is another aspect of these events that is highly concerning. Freedom of speech, rule of law, not having an (unofficial) aristocracy, and undivided loyalty for our nation (alone) are (were?) the essence of American values. > I think it's entirely reasonable to rethink our relationship with the people that are obviously exploiting the process. That is irony for you folks. I'll let you do the thinking on the unspoken matter here.

f38zf5vdt 2y ago

"Let's do all of this, but much worse, with more corruption, and more violently" is a weird response to perceived political grievances. Like how Leninist critiques of the Russian monarchy and subsequent revolution lead to a system at least as bad as that of the Tsar. If you want to deconstruct the status quo, make sure that your outcomes will be actually be better for you. Even Stalin ended up as a victim of his regime at the end of days, his physician ending up arrested and being interrogated while his health declined.

archagon 2y ago

I don’t quite recall Biden storming the Capitol, phoning politicians to “find votes,” and sending in a slate of fake electors to subvert the democratic process. But sure, the “activist judges” and their “lawfare” are the real problem here. Not, say, Judge Cannon punting and deferring rock-solid cases without precedent until it’s too late. Fucking horseshit.

hypeatei 2y ago

> where federal agencies are working directly with social media companies When did this happen? If you're referring to the "Twitter files", then you're take on this is very misinformed and the government did not coerce Twitter to suppress the laptop story. It was even found that Republicans submitted so many similar requests that Twitter had to keep a special database to track those requests. The right wing has a weird persecution complex while they have the biggest cable news network in the US (Fox News), just got control of all three branches of government, and had a billionaire buy Twitter for them to help their guy win. Will you only be satisfied if everyone agrees with you and drinks the Trump kool-aid? Also note that the "other" political party you're referring to didn't deny the election results and try to overthrow the government.

jhp123 2y ago

There is an old documentary called "the Revolution will not be Televised" about the Chavez presidency in Venezuela. If you watch it you will come away feeling that Chavez was treated pretty unfairly by the rightist media and "deep state" who attempted to overthrow his Presidency. But even if that is true, it is also true that Chavez took many actions to centralize power, erode democratic safeguards in the Constitution, control the media and destroy the opposition parties. Every step was justified by pointing to the horrible rightist conspiracy against Chavez. But the end result was a dictatorship and the absolute ruin of the Venezuelan state. This is normal for dictators. Many cast themselves as victims. Stalin was pressed on all sides by Capitalists, Kulaks, and Trotskyists. Hitler, of course, by Jews and Communists. Whether the accusations are pure fantasy or rooted in some level of real persecution of the movement, it is very important not to allow them to be used to justify the establishment of tyranny.