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Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level languag

by jrowen 2y ago

Using a tool to beat match has always been considered "cheating", but it is obvious why it is a tool. I guess in the same way that using a higher-level language than Assembly is "cheating." I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the Sync feature (which is still largely frowned upon) or more generally analyzed beatgrids, BPM readouts and Master Tempo (which keeps the pitch in tune when you change the tempo), but the vast majority of practicing DJs today are not needing/using the old school vinyl beatmatching techniques. Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listener's experience for cool points (including the physical issues with reproducing sound from delicate machinery in a chaotic environment).

dylan604 2y ago
> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the shoes in the dryer mixes and could not advance past that. They love the "beatmatch" magic. Doesn't mean that those that could are less of a DJ which is what you're trying to say? My perfect setup would be vinyl controllers of a digital player which is very much a thing. Of course, hearing a DJ mix vinyl that is older with all of the snap crackle pops of a burning log is not pleasant, but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller.
- jonwinstanley 2y ago
  I agree that the beat sync tools feel like cheating for the old school DJs, but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. It’s becoming more of a live performance
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Becoming? May I introduce you to the DMC World Championships https://www.dmcdjchamps.com/ https://www.dmcdjchamps.com/ edit: Also, I take offense to the insinuation that "old skool" DJs are not using new things to be more "creative". Old skool DJs are not old dawgs that can't learn new tricks.
  - w_TF 2y ago
    >but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. >It’s becoming more of a live performance while this is true in theory, i find that sometimes the new tools end up becoming a crutch making djs extremely boring the extra time freed up from not having to concentrate on beatmatching etc. is replaced with nothing a lot of the time i have no idea what people are even doing they may as well just be playing a playlist from spotify whereas i can generally discern what a vinyl dj is doing, and watching someone like jeff mills dig through piles of records & spinning 3 decks while being on the edge of trainwrecking has a kind of energy and tension that gets lost and is not replicable with newer technology it's sorta like someone being able to sing really well naturally vs someone with autotune that being said i've still seen amazing sets from digital djs or people with interesting live setups
    - jrowen 2y ago
      One of the commonly extolled virtues of playing vinyl is that you're "just playing records." As in, not using any fancy effects and tricks. For a lot of people, this is enough, and it's mostly about your music collection and song selection. If you're really good at vinyl, you're not doing much most of the time either and you can dance around and dig through records. Nothing about this needs to change when switching to CDJs. People get hung up on all this stuff that has very little to do with what matters most at the end of the day, which is the sound coming out of the speakers, and the experience of the audience (which I will grant that the visual aspect of watching the performer is a part of). Deadmau5 talks about stuff like this...basically everyone at a major festival is playing a prerecorded set so that visuals and lights and the rest of the show can be synced up. It doesn't matter what tools you use or how much work you're doing as long as people are entertained. It's about putting on the best show you can. Jeff Mills is a God-like legend, of course your average local DJ isn't going to compare. It is a bit like being a real estate agent in that the barrier to entry is super low now but you still have to be skilled in some way or another to be really successful.
- jrowen 2y ago
  That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Not really, you just have a lot more information and tools at your disposal. It's going to be a better performance. In no other area of endeavor is anyone expected to limit themselves to decades-old technology, that would just be madness. but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller. How is it superior? We've just covered so many ways it's inferior. I have a number of friends that are really into vinyl, I've never really "gotten" it, there's no argument other than this kind of nostalgic fetish (which I'm not saying is for nothing, but I usually just want to use whatever technology I can to create the best experience for the listener).
  - dylan604 2y ago
    If you've never used vinyl enough to "get it", then how can you say that it's inferior. The tactile experience of controlling the sound with the vinyl is so different than some digital plastic feeling controller. Yes, the higher end CDJs have a better feel to them decades later, but it is still not the same. At this point we might as well be arguing about tab vs spaces. Using vinyl is my thing, and it is just not going to be possible to explain why I like it so much without the both of us being at the gear. Words do not convey the same as the touch
    - calmoo 2y ago
      you're arguing about something different to the person you're replying to.
      - lbotos 2y ago
        He's.... not tho? > but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller. It's absolutely objective, but the feel of vinyl on a slipmat is absolutely so much nicer than a jog wheel. But many ppl barely even use jog wheels these days. Just nudging to get in time. When you spend countless hours getting the right light touch on a vinyl that Tactile feel is absolutely lacking when it comes to more digital interfaces. I'm not arguing vinyl records sound better. GP and me are arguing that it feels better.
hnlmorg 2y ago
> sacrificing the listener's experience for cool points (including the physical issues with reproducing sound from delicate machinery in a chaotic environment). I was with you right up until this point. People care about the music, not about how tight the beats line up. I’ve heard some amazing DJs who were actually shit at beat matching but had unparalleled track selection. I’ve also heard some technically amazing DJs who were incredibly dull to listen to because their songs and set progression just went nowhere. I’ve also had far more technical problems, both as a DJ myself and as a clubber, with modern controllers than with vinyl. The fact is there’s less to actually go wrong with vinyl. And I say this as someone who never had any love for Technics 1210s as vinyl turntables. To give an example of “less to go wrong”, I was at one gig and the turntable stopped working. We opened it up, replaced an internal fuse and it started working again. The whole thing took literally 10 minutes to fix. If a CDJ died like that you’d be looking at replacing it with a whole new unit. At the end of the day, I never really cared how the music was performed just as long as the music was good. Because of that, I was one of the early adopters of Ableton. But these days I have a family so just DJ vinyl at the occasional house party.
- jrowen 2y ago
  I'll give you that I was being overly harsh or generalizing too broadly, perhaps with the hope that someone would challenge that. The points you make about DJs are valid but irrelevant to the hardware. If "all else is equal," the newer tech just has the benefit of decades of engineering and feedback loops and is purpose-built for that exact application. It's not going to be beat by 1970s tech, your once-in-a-blue-moon anecdote is outweighed by countless frustrations with turntables[1], and you won't find anyone in the industry that thinks it's going to work easier/better to set up turntables than CDJs. Supporting vinyl is a huge hassle and it's generally only done for special events or artists (or vinyl-specific bars that have gone to great lengths and leave their setup intact). [1] Not to mention that yes, having a replacement on hand (or already hooked up) is the pro move to solve that problem quickly. As badass as it is, I don't think it's all that desirable for a DJ to be opening up hardware mid-gig.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
pdntspa 2y ago
I just threw down a two-hour vinyl mix of drum-and-bass at my local vinyl night (no trainwrecks, thankfully), and amongst the folks of this particular artist collective are several who would meet that description. And we are one of many in a tier-2 metro.
- jrowen 2y ago
  Cool thanks for stopping by, I'm happy for you really, not sure what point you're trying to make.
  - emptysongglass 2y ago
    Their point was that you're not going to be hard-pressed to find talented vinyl DJs, as you otherwise indicated. Please don't write snide comments here. They don't belong on HN or anywhere else, really.
    - jrowen 2y ago
      Ok, my bad. I just didn't feel like it meaningfully countered anything I've argued. It is true that there is a culture of vinyl DJs and nights out there, and I'm not really commenting on their relative skill level. I have no doubt they have a higher degree of passion than the set of all people who ever touched a controller or represented DJing poorly. I'm just saying that for most intents and purposes the CDJ is a considerably larger and more reliable superset of the capabilities of a turntable and it amplifies anyone's abilities and is relied upon as the industry standard for a reason.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat matching as they were just dumb turntables albeit with a janky plastic fisher price feeling jogwheel. It wasn’t until much later the auto syncing was available, and then the CDJ just became controllers. The CDJ or other digital controllers did not become standard because they were the superior tactile controller.

by jrowen 2y ago

dylan604 2y ago

> Call it whatever you want but you're going to be incredibly hard-pressed to find anyone that can mix as smoothly on vinyl as someone decent with CDJs. Sure it's a cool dying art and analog and all that but at this point virtually anyone trying to play vinyl out is sacrificing the listening experience for cool points That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Yes, there were some very bad vinyl DJs that loved the shoes in the dryer mixes and could not advance past that. They love the "beatmatch" magic. Doesn't mean that those that could are less of a DJ which is what you're trying to say? My perfect setup would be vinyl controllers of a digital player which is very much a thing. Of course, hearing a DJ mix vinyl that is older with all of the snap crackle pops of a burning log is not pleasant, but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller.

jonwinstanley 2y ago
I agree that the beat sync tools feel like cheating for the old school DJs, but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. It’s becoming more of a live performance
- dylan604 2y ago
  Becoming? May I introduce you to the DMC World Championships https://www.dmcdjchamps.com/ https://www.dmcdjchamps.com/ edit: Also, I take offense to the insinuation that "old skool" DJs are not using new things to be more "creative". Old skool DJs are not old dawgs that can't learn new tricks.
- w_TF 2y ago
  >but the newer generation are using it to get more creative. Without spending half the time beat matching, they now have time to interact with the tracks more - play with stems, loops, filters, fx, scratching etc. >It’s becoming more of a live performance while this is true in theory, i find that sometimes the new tools end up becoming a crutch making djs extremely boring the extra time freed up from not having to concentrate on beatmatching etc. is replaced with nothing a lot of the time i have no idea what people are even doing they may as well just be playing a playlist from spotify whereas i can generally discern what a vinyl dj is doing, and watching someone like jeff mills dig through piles of records & spinning 3 decks while being on the edge of trainwrecking has a kind of energy and tension that gets lost and is not replicable with newer technology it's sorta like someone being able to sing really well naturally vs someone with autotune that being said i've still seen amazing sets from digital djs or people with interesting live setups
  - jrowen 2y ago
    One of the commonly extolled virtues of playing vinyl is that you're "just playing records." As in, not using any fancy effects and tricks. For a lot of people, this is enough, and it's mostly about your music collection and song selection. If you're really good at vinyl, you're not doing much most of the time either and you can dance around and dig through records. Nothing about this needs to change when switching to CDJs. People get hung up on all this stuff that has very little to do with what matters most at the end of the day, which is the sound coming out of the speakers, and the experience of the audience (which I will grant that the visual aspect of watching the performer is a part of). Deadmau5 talks about stuff like this...basically everyone at a major festival is playing a prerecorded set so that visuals and lights and the rest of the show can be synced up. It doesn't matter what tools you use or how much work you're doing as long as people are entertained. It's about putting on the best show you can. Jeff Mills is a God-like legend, of course your average local DJ isn't going to compare. It is a bit like being a real estate agent in that the barrier to entry is super low now but you still have to be skilled in some way or another to be really successful.
jrowen 2y ago
That's a sad commentary on today's DJs then. Not really, you just have a lot more information and tools at your disposal. It's going to be a better performance. In no other area of endeavor is anyone expected to limit themselves to decades-old technology, that would just be madness. but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller. How is it superior? We've just covered so many ways it's inferior. I have a number of friends that are really into vinyl, I've never really "gotten" it, there's no argument other than this kind of nostalgic fetish (which I'm not saying is for nothing, but I usually just want to use whatever technology I can to create the best experience for the listener).
- dylan604 2y ago
  If you've never used vinyl enough to "get it", then how can you say that it's inferior. The tactile experience of controlling the sound with the vinyl is so different than some digital plastic feeling controller. Yes, the higher end CDJs have a better feel to them decades later, but it is still not the same. At this point we might as well be arguing about tab vs spaces. Using vinyl is my thing, and it is just not going to be possible to explain why I like it so much without the both of us being at the gear. Words do not convey the same as the touch
  - calmoo 2y ago
    you're arguing about something different to the person you're replying to.
    - lbotos 2y ago
      He's.... not tho? > but that does not diminish the vinyl as a controller being superior to a tiny plastic spin wheel on a digital controller. It's absolutely objective, but the feel of vinyl on a slipmat is absolutely so much nicer than a jog wheel. But many ppl barely even use jog wheels these days. Just nudging to get in time. When you spend countless hours getting the right light touch on a vinyl that Tactile feel is absolutely lacking when it comes to more digital interfaces. I'm not arguing vinyl records sound better. GP and me are arguing that it feels better.

hnlmorg 2y ago

> sacrificing the listener's experience for cool points (including the physical issues with reproducing sound from delicate machinery in a chaotic environment). I was with you right up until this point. People care about the music, not about how tight the beats line up. I’ve heard some amazing DJs who were actually shit at beat matching but had unparalleled track selection. I’ve also heard some technically amazing DJs who were incredibly dull to listen to because their songs and set progression just went nowhere. I’ve also had far more technical problems, both as a DJ myself and as a clubber, with modern controllers than with vinyl. The fact is there’s less to actually go wrong with vinyl. And I say this as someone who never had any love for Technics 1210s as vinyl turntables. To give an example of “less to go wrong”, I was at one gig and the turntable stopped working. We opened it up, replaced an internal fuse and it started working again. The whole thing took literally 10 minutes to fix. If a CDJ died like that you’d be looking at replacing it with a whole new unit. At the end of the day, I never really cared how the music was performed just as long as the music was good. Because of that, I was one of the early adopters of Ableton. But these days I have a family so just DJ vinyl at the occasional house party.

jrowen 2y ago
I'll give you that I was being overly harsh or generalizing too broadly, perhaps with the hope that someone would challenge that. The points you make about DJs are valid but irrelevant to the hardware. If "all else is equal," the newer tech just has the benefit of decades of engineering and feedback loops and is purpose-built for that exact application. It's not going to be beat by 1970s tech, your once-in-a-blue-moon anecdote is outweighed by countless frustrations with turntables[1], and you won't find anyone in the industry that thinks it's going to work easier/better to set up turntables than CDJs. Supporting vinyl is a huge hassle and it's generally only done for special events or artists (or vinyl-specific bars that have gone to great lengths and leave their setup intact). [1] Not to mention that yes, having a replacement on hand (or already hooked up) is the pro move to solve that problem quickly. As badass as it is, I don't think it's all that desirable for a DJ to be opening up hardware mid-gig.
- hnlmorg 2y ago

pdntspa 2y ago

I just threw down a two-hour vinyl mix of drum-and-bass at my local vinyl night (no trainwrecks, thankfully), and amongst the folks of this particular artist collective are several who would meet that description. And we are one of many in a tier-2 metro.

jrowen 2y ago
Cool thanks for stopping by, I'm happy for you really, not sure what point you're trying to make.
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  Their point was that you're not going to be hard-pressed to find talented vinyl DJs, as you otherwise indicated. Please don't write snide comments here. They don't belong on HN or anywhere else, really.
  - jrowen 2y ago
    Ok, my bad. I just didn't feel like it meaningfully countered anything I've argued. It is true that there is a culture of vinyl DJs and nights out there, and I'm not really commenting on their relative skill level. I have no doubt they have a higher degree of passion than the set of all people who ever touched a controller or represented DJing poorly. I'm just saying that for most intents and purposes the CDJ is a considerably larger and more reliable superset of the capabilities of a turntable and it amplifies anyone's abilities and is relied upon as the industry standard for a reason.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      CDJ became standard for multiple reasons having nothing to do with your arguments. The media is much lighter and compact. I could walk in with a booklet of CDs and play a longer set than having to lug in multiple 50lb crates. CDs are not susceptible to cue burns or other wear and tear. CDJs don’t have to worry about stylus wear and tear. Fewer labels were pressing vinyl too. Original CDJs did not have auto beat matching as they were just dumb turntables albeit with a janky plastic fisher price feeling jogwheel. It wasn’t until much later the auto syncing was available, and then the CDJ just became controllers. The CDJ or other digital controllers did not become standard because they were the superior tactile controller.