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The current protests are tame and quite frankly pathetic. If your protests aren't strong enough that the government fears you, there's no reason to believe an

The current protests are tame and quite frankly pathetic. If your protests aren't strong enough that the government fears you, there's no reason to believe an apathetic government will even acknowledge you. Until the citizens of the US are willing to shut things down, expect nothing to change. Look to other countries for examples of effective protest and understand that effective protest requires sacrifice, not just an afternoon walking around with a sign.

Trasmatta 2y ago
I see a lot of comments like this from people not even willing to take the step of going to a protest in the first place. Expecting someone else to generate the critical mass needed to effect the change you're talking about, without lifting a finger themselves. The people "spending an afternoon walking around with a sign" are doing a lot more than the people shitting on them for it. Mass movements have to start somewhere, they don't come out of thin air. Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"?
- MegaButts 2y ago
  > Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"? This is quite the whataboutism. Just because I criticize the protestors doesn't mean I'm defending people that don't protest. You're right, it's a start. But pragmatically it's still not meaningful. Until the protests are strong enough that the government actually feels fear there is no reason to expect anything to happen. That's just reality.
  - Trasmatta 2y ago
    It's a whole lot more meaningful than the people who sit at home waiting for someone else to do something. Again, movements always start somewhere.
    - MegaButts 2y ago
      If the protest is ineffective then the protest is ineffective. I don't care how hard you tried, I care how effective you were. Pragmatically, if the protest doesn't change anything, it's not any better than sitting at home. If that protest leads to bigger protests that ultimately change something, then that matters. Yes, everything has to start somewhere. But that doesn't mean every start is meaningful if it goes nowhere.
      - voidhorse 2y ago
        Huh? I think you've reached a reduction ad absurdium that would suggest quietism as the best policy, you claim: protests aren't meaningful unless they get results but protests also have to start somewhere but these starts have no results so better not to start Do you really expect a singular protest which will change the world order over night? It might give us some personal satisfaction to claim others are ineffective and weak, but in the annals of history, that amounts to even less than a sign bearing march. If you really want to make an impact put forward some positive prescriptions, like the strikes you mentioned, I agree that actual strikes would be a good step. I hope you are actively sharing these recommendations to people who can organize and not just putting forward diffuse ineffectual critique to strangers on hacker news
        MegaButts 2y ago
        I never said you shouldn't protest. I said the current protests are pathetic.
        voidhorse 2y ago
        Fair enough. I will say that you do not need to explicitly say something for your line of argumentation to imply it as a logical consequence. I would stress that such a judgement (that the effort is pathetic) is not constructive. What we need right now are concrete, constructive, positive suggestions on how to make these efforts more effective. Value judgements like this, as much as they might make us feel better by giving us a claim to superiority, accomplish nothing.
- runarberg 2y ago
  For protests to have any bite they must be coordinated, focused and persistent. While neither the countries largest unions, nor the opposition is calling for any direct action (be they demonstrations, boycotts, or general strikes) it is unlikely that they will be any of the three. Now protests can be demonstrative and the more you protest the likelier you are at protesting again, and if the climate is right some organizations might join and call for others to participate. But what usually happens though is police violence suppressing them as soon as they look like they are gaining any steam (see e.g. Occupy Wall Street or BLM). That said, as long as the opposition and the large unions are lame, any direct action will remain pretty restricted.
giantg2 2y ago
The government isn't going to fear anything that's a protest unless it affects their reelection. It would be helpful if you give examples of the other protests you reference, as I think you might be lacking verbosity and other words may be more accurate to use.
- jrs235 2y ago
  Strike reelection and replace with power.
- prawn 2y ago
  For that reason, if I was seeking change, I'd go aggressively after any Republican who isn't shutting this sort of thing down. Seek public statements in opposition or link them as complicit. Do it in a way that has a lasting effect. Trump will flame out. Musk's fallback is wealth. But there are others quietly riding on their efforts who will then wash their hands of them when the opportunity arises.
ModernMech 2y ago
Musk is out there calling Tesla protestors terrorists. If what you're doing is enough to get you labelled a terrorist by the opposition, then you're doing something they fear.
immibis 2y ago
Protests have never caused political change. Not once in history. Protests cannot cause political change. They do a few things, but actually causing change is not one of them. They show how many people support something; they group those people together enabling the spread of ideas; they group those people together enabling the state apparatus to take them all down in one go.

Trasmatta 2y ago

I see a lot of comments like this from people not even willing to take the step of going to a protest in the first place. Expecting someone else to generate the critical mass needed to effect the change you're talking about, without lifting a finger themselves. The people "spending an afternoon walking around with a sign" are doing a lot more than the people shitting on them for it. Mass movements have to start somewhere, they don't come out of thin air. Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"?

MegaButts 2y ago
> Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"? This is quite the whataboutism. Just because I criticize the protestors doesn't mean I'm defending people that don't protest. You're right, it's a start. But pragmatically it's still not meaningful. Until the protests are strong enough that the government actually feels fear there is no reason to expect anything to happen. That's just reality.
- Trasmatta 2y ago
  It's a whole lot more meaningful than the people who sit at home waiting for someone else to do something. Again, movements always start somewhere.
  - MegaButts 2y ago
    If the protest is ineffective then the protest is ineffective. I don't care how hard you tried, I care how effective you were. Pragmatically, if the protest doesn't change anything, it's not any better than sitting at home. If that protest leads to bigger protests that ultimately change something, then that matters. Yes, everything has to start somewhere. But that doesn't mean every start is meaningful if it goes nowhere.
    - voidhorse 2y ago
      Huh? I think you've reached a reduction ad absurdium that would suggest quietism as the best policy, you claim: protests aren't meaningful unless they get results but protests also have to start somewhere but these starts have no results so better not to start Do you really expect a singular protest which will change the world order over night? It might give us some personal satisfaction to claim others are ineffective and weak, but in the annals of history, that amounts to even less than a sign bearing march. If you really want to make an impact put forward some positive prescriptions, like the strikes you mentioned, I agree that actual strikes would be a good step. I hope you are actively sharing these recommendations to people who can organize and not just putting forward diffuse ineffectual critique to strangers on hacker news
      - MegaButts 2y ago
        I never said you shouldn't protest. I said the current protests are pathetic.
        voidhorse 2y ago
        Fair enough. I will say that you do not need to explicitly say something for your line of argumentation to imply it as a logical consequence. I would stress that such a judgement (that the effort is pathetic) is not constructive. What we need right now are concrete, constructive, positive suggestions on how to make these efforts more effective. Value judgements like this, as much as they might make us feel better by giving us a claim to superiority, accomplish nothing.
runarberg 2y ago
For protests to have any bite they must be coordinated, focused and persistent. While neither the countries largest unions, nor the opposition is calling for any direct action (be they demonstrations, boycotts, or general strikes) it is unlikely that they will be any of the three. Now protests can be demonstrative and the more you protest the likelier you are at protesting again, and if the climate is right some organizations might join and call for others to participate. But what usually happens though is police violence suppressing them as soon as they look like they are gaining any steam (see e.g. Occupy Wall Street or BLM). That said, as long as the opposition and the large unions are lame, any direct action will remain pretty restricted.

giantg2 2y ago

The government isn't going to fear anything that's a protest unless it affects their reelection. It would be helpful if you give examples of the other protests you reference, as I think you might be lacking verbosity and other words may be more accurate to use.

jrs235 2y ago
Strike reelection and replace with power.
prawn 2y ago
For that reason, if I was seeking change, I'd go aggressively after any Republican who isn't shutting this sort of thing down. Seek public statements in opposition or link them as complicit. Do it in a way that has a lasting effect. Trump will flame out. Musk's fallback is wealth. But there are others quietly riding on their efforts who will then wash their hands of them when the opportunity arises.

ModernMech 2y ago

Musk is out there calling Tesla protestors terrorists. If what you're doing is enough to get you labelled a terrorist by the opposition, then you're doing something they fear.

immibis 2y ago

Protests have never caused political change. Not once in history. Protests cannot cause political change. They do a few things, but actually causing change is not one of them. They show how many people support something; they group those people together enabling the spread of ideas; they group those people together enabling the state apparatus to take them all down in one go.