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The connection between education and wealth is very strong. Very sad that the US has decided to pursue a trajectory towards poverty in this area.
by not_kurt_godel 2y ago
The connection between education and wealth is very strong. Very sad that the US has decided to pursue a trajectory towards poverty in this area.
- mc32 2y agoIn popular US culture the pursuit of wealth, is framed as crass. Movies that some see as promoting wealth accumulation are often actually critiques against wealth. Also, since the mid 60s pop culture has embraced the slacker as being hip and cool. They guy and gal trying to get ahead are portrayed as greedy or at best blindly joining a rat-race forgoing more noble pursuits. Not so for many other cultures.
- paulluuk 2y agoI think that in almost all western countries, a life spent entirely on hoarding wealth for the sake of wealth, is considered a sad life. Especially if you don't even have any loved ones to share your wealth with. I think the same it true for most of Latin america, where many of my friends and colleagues are from. And when I was in Nepal they thought that, if anything, western people are way too much focused on gathering wealth. Islam specifically rejects hoarding wealth, so I think that pretty much takes out most of the middle east and northern africa. So I'm curious which other cultures you are referring to. Perhaps specifically Indian and Chinese culture?
- nick__m 2y agoIslam specifically rejects hoarding wealth, so I think that pretty much takes out most of the middle east I don't know much about religions but I don't believe it is that clearly delineated. How would you explain Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Bahrain, from my limited vantage point they seem pretty much all in on their religion. Are they practicing a perverse form of Islam like the Christian who practice prosperity gospel?
- blululu 2y agoIslam is probably the most economically savvy major religion (Mohammed was a merchant after all). Unlike other religions which issue blanket prohibitions on things like charging interest or having wealth Islam is more pragmatic. Hoarding wealth is considered sinful when it means that others are going without but it is not a sin to make money, have money or be rich. The gulf states could all broadly be described as socialist. Yes they have a lot of money but pretty much everyone lives on welfare and enjoys a high quality of life (nobody is going hungry or falling ill from easily treated diseases). In a country where everyone has attained a high standard of living there is no issue with someone having a huge pile of cash. We could throw out labor issues from guest workers, but that is a bigger topic.
- Gud 2y agoSorry but they cannot be described as socialist because workers rights are non existent. Just because there is some protection for the native Arabs doesn't mean it can be "broadly described as socialist". There is no protection for the Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Indians, etc, who are doing the work. Protecting the working class is pretty much the point of socialism. This is a ludicrous statement.
- ern 2y agoThey’re welfare states, with three classes of residents. A slave-like underclass, disenfranchised expats, and citizens who get paid off by their royal families with generous benefits. Maybe the closest analogy is Ancient Rome?
- Gud 2y agoI don't think the underclass is living under slave like conditions though. Full disclosure, I worked in Dubai for 2 years(as a disenfranchised expat), working closely with guys from above mentioned countries. I install heavy machinery. It's true some are treated poorly, but most are there genuinely there out of free will, because they make buckets of money to send back home. One Pakistani foreman I worked with had stashed away 250k Dirhams and was going back home to start his own business. The gulf states can/could be an opportunity for the poor, see Bin Laden family for a famous example. More than criticizing the gulf states for using these people as cheap labor, the criticism should be aimed at their corrupt governments not giving opportunities to their own population. Ironically they are not even allowed inside Europe and the US. FWIW my experience in Dubai changed my views on the region to a much more nuanced one.
- YouAreRONGS 2y agoIt's also commonplace in traditional Buddhist and Hindu cultures, especially a lot of the older upper class in India are obsessed with following Gandhi-like living too. You still find it in many Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka and South East Asia too.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoThe world would be a great place if the older upper classes learned from and tried to emulate Gandhi
- YouAreRONGS 2y agoA lot of the older upper class Hindus in India do actually act like that. And it's also quite common in Sri Lanka and South East Asia for the upper class to do that.
- zozbot234 2y agoA lot depends on how exactly you pursue wealth. You could say that Donald Trump and Elon Musk have both striven to "pursue wealth" in their business careers, but nonetheless they did so in very different ways. And plenty of people will likely find Donald's approach somewhat "crass" compared to Elon's.
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- anon291 2y agoThat's because America is fundamentally a Christian country. I know no one wants to hear this. But this zeitgeist is unmistakenly Christian. Interestingly enough the same forces are at work in kerala, which is one of the most Christian states in India (and the ruling communists are associated with them)
- mc32 2y agoCan you expound on this idea? What does anti-wealth have to do with Christianity and how does Communism enter the frame in India? Prior to the mid 60s seeking betterment and wealth was one of the main reasons people migrated to the US replacing religious persecution back home as the main reason to come.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoChristianity (esp. Catholicism) and socialism have a long connection, especially in South America, which did not have the economic miracle Kerala did. Kerala did not become wealthy from socialism, it became literate and land reform lifted many out of poverty. The actual wealth started accumulating when Keralites took advantage of opportunities to work abroad and send remittances home. That has been a major economic driver for the state and India as a whole, but they did it long before others did, largely because land reform gave people a safety net to fall back on so they could risk going abroad to earn more
- Lio 2y agoSocialism maybe the but the Roman Catholic church has a strong history of opposition to communism. I would suggest God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican as for a pop-culture introduction of how the Catholic church aligned itself with fascist states including Mussolini's PNF, the Nazis and the Ustaše. The Ustaše were particularly closely associated with the Catholic church.
- anon291 2y ago> Roman Catholic church has a strong history of opposition to communism India is so far removed from Europe that things work a bit differently. The keralites were not communist the way European countries were
- evan_ 2y agoI don't think this is true anymore. "Selling out" is now seen as a goal. Kids post fake ads on their instagrams to convince each other that they have brand sponsorship deals. Every celebrity, from reality-show nobody to AAA-lister shills for their own signature alcohol or cell phone carrier. The culture celebrates grindset mindset crypto-scam rugpulls and denigrates anyone who toils at a 9-5 as a wage-slave who'll never make it.
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoIt may be strong to a point, but many countries are beyond that point. Look at how many countries there are that are better educated than the USA but have lower incomes. Japan, Germany, Canada, probably dozens more.
- zoul 2y agoHigher income does not equal higher quality of life. Which is, arguably, what really matters to people.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoQoL is a relative metric though. If you see people around you living better than you, your QoL becomes poor even though you live better than 99% of people in the world
- bakuninsbart 2y agoThree points on that: 1. Secondary and tertiary education is not all there is to education. A self-learned software engineer might lack a capital-E education, but has still spent significant time and effort on learning. 2. Education is one of many aspects of a successful life, at least as important is conscientiousness, diligence, intelligence and luck. 3. The US benefits from many virtuous cycles. In regards to the labor force it is able to attract a lot of the best talent in the world. Given the current political climate in the US, it seems prudent to point out that point 3 isn't just true for business-men, doctors and other nerds, undocumented immigrants are some of the hardest-working people out there. They contribute almost 100b in taxes alone, and get almost no services in return.
- tonyhart7 2y agobut US have many top ranking universities in the world, how can you believe that US is behind in education?
- SJC_Hacker 2y agoUniversities accept international students, and hire faculty educated outside the US More relevant would be K-12
- azinman2 2y agoIt’s all relevant, but there is zero doubt that the US has the best higher education in the world (although this administration seems hell bent on attacking it). There’s a reason more international students come to the US than anywhere else for higher education.
- xhkkffbf 2y agoThey hire foreigners largely because they're much cheaper than Americans. The schools have little trouble getting visas for foreign professors so, of course, they maximize their profits by hiring the cheapest they can get.
- SJC_Hacker 2y agoI don't think thats the case at all At least in STEM, its all about the ability to get grants. A professor who consistently gets grants is worth their weight in gold in "indirect" costs. Foreigner or otherwise
- xhkkffbf 2y agoLook at any department. It's rare for all of the professors to get big grants. Usually a substantial fraction are essentially paid by either undergraduate or graduate tuition. In these cases of the non-constellation professors, it's better to get someone who is both good enough and cheap.
- YouAreRONGS 2y agoLiteracy is a by-product of raising living standards. It's not inherintly something that will alone lead to higher living standards.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoWhile I agree, countries like the US where everyone was pretty much already literate decades ago, can and do backslide into anti-intellectualism even when living standards are rising. I have seen it myself.
- YouAreRONGS 2y agoIs that really anti-intellectualism? Do you have any examples?
- peterfirefly 2y agoEurope had really high literacy long before it reached the living standard of most of current Africa. Living standards do not have to be high for near universal literacy.
- panick21_ 2y agoQuestionable. There is defiantly some connection, but in what direction is open for debate. But its also the case that the Soviet block countries had lots of educated people, but couldn't make the economy work out. And given for how many years the US has had sub-optimal results in international education comparison, while the overall economy has done well also doesn't fit.
- xhkkffbf 2y agoEducation is tricky. The wrong education can really stunt your economic competitiveness. I'm sure the Soviet world had plenty of classroom time devoted to the glory of Communism. Each classroom probably had a politruk available to help out. Too many kids go to other universities and study similar things. It's fine to explore these ideas, but at the end of the day you've got to make someone happy or they won't pay you.
- panick21_ 2y agoThey also had really good maths and other useful things. They actually did what many in the West many wanted. Their education wasn't bad, learning wrong history isn't really that economically relevant. But yeah, if the economy can't use those people its just not effective.
- human_person 2y agoLearning wrong history can be economically relevant. So much of history is about learning patterns of human behavior. Patterns that often repeat. If you learn wrong or untrue history your understanding of and expectations for human behavior will be incorrect which will certainly cause economic issues.
- panick21_ 2y agoMaybe if you are in top level government. But for 99% of workers it doesn't matter much. Also, much of typical school history most people learn is incredibly shallow and the waste majority of people barley remember anything. Research show this pretty clearly. So teaching something wrong, is not gone matter much.
- sporkland 2y agoI honestly can't tell if you're referring to the current administration or the previous one with this comment. (Fun SNL video with similar confusion: https://youtu.be/8h_N80qKYOM https://youtu.be/8h_N80qKYOM)
- inglor_cz 2y agoI think that with TikTok and such channels squeezing out the ability to read, the entire humanity is embarking on a massive de-literatization experiment.
- torginus 2y agoThat's patently not true. The connection exists only as far as if you're uneducated (and/or have subnormal IQ), you're likely to be poor, I suspect because you're not smart enough to master the basic skills to function in society, so it might be because of the latter. Outside of the US there are very few countries where being highly educated (as in having an in-demand degree from a prestigious university) nets you anything beyond a small earnings bump over the middle class, and the people who have this are a small elite (no more than a few percent) everywhere.