3 ms·

> The “digital echo” is more than just the awareness of this; it is the cognitive burden of knowing that our actions generate data elsewhere. I don't really f

by tines 2y ago

> The “digital echo” is more than just the awareness of this; it is the cognitive burden of knowing that our actions generate data elsewhere. I don't really feel any burden of this myself, I don't feel weighed down by the data generated by my actions. If someone else wants to clutter up their database with some useless info, that's on them. I mainly feel the "direct" burden of distraction.

chuckadams 2y ago
Just came from a thread where people are discussing Foucault’s literal panopticon (Bentham really but Foucault popularized it) and it seems relevant here. Just knowing that someone is watching changes how you behave.
- ta8645 2y ago
  But that is not always a bad thing, and it might not change how people behave _enough_. This one minute Youtube short, gives an example of a guy dancing, without regard to being watched. And how a large internet crowd reacted to him being shamed by others at the dance. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2rtYzzSgL0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2rtYzzSgL0 I think we tend to focus on the negative effects of constant surveillance, without giving a nod to the positive once in a while.
- tines 2y ago
  I guess that's what I'm saying: I don't feel like I'm being watched. I don't feel as though some website recording my clicks is burdensome to me. I leave them to their little games and microoptimizations, and I don't take their bait---I have much more important things going on.
  - saint_fiasco 2y ago
    Have you ever accidentally clicked on a YouTube video and then had your recommended videos turn into pure garbage for a little while? It doesn't have to be a high stakes situation, sometimes small annoyances can add up
  - -__---____-ZXyw 2y ago
    If someone grows up in some panopticon-like structure from birth, they by definition cannot feel like they're being watched - to even register the fact of being watched, one must know the feeling of not being watched. I don't mean that in any abstract or airy-fair way either, just matter-of-factly. It's a major cultural change. Kids often have no lived experience of privacy - privacy sometimes simply means social non-existence for them, and is thus deemed a non-option. It's playing out in many areas now, as we've lots of people who lived before the internet, and at the same time, loads of human beings who only know a world of constant surveillance, a world of views = value, a world of constantly caressing your phone, pawing at it at every available opportunity. A world of quiet buses, people getting dressed up for their phone and pretending to go on a night out but never leaving their bedroom, other people at home in their bedroom on their phones liking that "story", etc etc.
    - tines 2y ago
      I didn't grow up in the internet age so your point falls flat a bit.
      - handfuloflight 2y ago
        It does seem you grew into it?
        tines 2y ago
        If that's true then it refutes the article, doesn't it?
- hn_acc1 2y ago
  Not even the fact that someONE is watching in the moment. I'm 1/8E9 - there's too much concurrent data from all of us "ants" for anyone to observe for me to care too much. It's the fact that online my data isn't ephemeral and someone COULD watch in the future, if they care - or deploy someTHING to do their watching for them - and I'm unsure of what will be cared about by "the powers that be" in the future. I'm sure someone could dig up my embarrassing ideas about music and religion from 30 years ago on usenet. But people probably don't care enough, and that data may or may not still be available. And there wasn't a ton of political discussion - and certainly nothing about (now) current politicians. But right now, if I say "A sucks", it's probably saved online forever, and depending on where I say it, it's easily available to LLM-derived bots. Including to those currently tearing down civilization who might have taken a bribe from "A" without my knowledge to punish anyone who dislikes them - or who take a bribe from "A" in the future. And "LLM agents" will be deployed to scour the 'net for such sentiments, find those who they can easily connect to a real identity, and possibly punish them retroactively. At this point, I'm keeping my head "down" 100x more than I did just 6 months ago. Heck, I worry if even this post is too much and I'll regret it later. I used to go online as a kid to "escape a not-so-great reality" (geek/nerd, not a great athlete, not popular, etc). These days, I long to "disconnect" to escape. But I'm a software guy, and if I get off the "keep up with the latest tech" treadmill too long, I risk losing my livelihood..
  - chuckadams 2y ago
    Whenever I post, I always have that Violent Femmes lyric in my head: “I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record.”
gchamonlive 2y ago
I agree. It's less like treating data as something alien and pathologic, and more like an extension of yourself and your identity that's just harder to control and to maintain.
- Aerroon 2y ago
  The problem isn't the data, it's how other people react to it.
footlose_3815 2y ago
This reminds me of when the news channels back in 2014 always said "Harmless metadata" as damage control after the Snowden leaks. Compromised smart devices has been leveraged to hurt people all around the world. Do you think you are immune? A very low-key life would really help, but the next bored hacker is waiting for the right metadata to be combined and they will leverage it against you.
- genewitch 2y ago
  My favorite was "hashed minutae of your biometrics"
  - weard_beard 2y ago
    Can you please rephrase that, I find the sensory experience overwhelming.
gblargg 2y ago
I often find myself relying on my "digital echoes" to piece together something I did, and when. It's useful to make up for one's lack of logging what they do.

by tines 2y ago

chuckadams 2y ago

Just came from a thread where people are discussing Foucault’s literal panopticon (Bentham really but Foucault popularized it) and it seems relevant here. Just knowing that someone is watching changes how you behave.

ta8645 2y ago
But that is not always a bad thing, and it might not change how people behave _enough_. This one minute Youtube short, gives an example of a guy dancing, without regard to being watched. And how a large internet crowd reacted to him being shamed by others at the dance. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2rtYzzSgL0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2rtYzzSgL0 I think we tend to focus on the negative effects of constant surveillance, without giving a nod to the positive once in a while.
tines 2y ago
I guess that's what I'm saying: I don't feel like I'm being watched. I don't feel as though some website recording my clicks is burdensome to me. I leave them to their little games and microoptimizations, and I don't take their bait---I have much more important things going on.
- saint_fiasco 2y ago
  Have you ever accidentally clicked on a YouTube video and then had your recommended videos turn into pure garbage for a little while? It doesn't have to be a high stakes situation, sometimes small annoyances can add up
- -__---____-ZXyw 2y ago
  If someone grows up in some panopticon-like structure from birth, they by definition cannot feel like they're being watched - to even register the fact of being watched, one must know the feeling of not being watched. I don't mean that in any abstract or airy-fair way either, just matter-of-factly. It's a major cultural change. Kids often have no lived experience of privacy - privacy sometimes simply means social non-existence for them, and is thus deemed a non-option. It's playing out in many areas now, as we've lots of people who lived before the internet, and at the same time, loads of human beings who only know a world of constant surveillance, a world of views = value, a world of constantly caressing your phone, pawing at it at every available opportunity. A world of quiet buses, people getting dressed up for their phone and pretending to go on a night out but never leaving their bedroom, other people at home in their bedroom on their phones liking that "story", etc etc.
  - tines 2y ago
    I didn't grow up in the internet age so your point falls flat a bit.
    - handfuloflight 2y ago
      It does seem you grew into it?
      - tines 2y ago
        If that's true then it refutes the article, doesn't it?
hn_acc1 2y ago
Not even the fact that someONE is watching in the moment. I'm 1/8E9 - there's too much concurrent data from all of us "ants" for anyone to observe for me to care too much. It's the fact that online my data isn't ephemeral and someone COULD watch in the future, if they care - or deploy someTHING to do their watching for them - and I'm unsure of what will be cared about by "the powers that be" in the future. I'm sure someone could dig up my embarrassing ideas about music and religion from 30 years ago on usenet. But people probably don't care enough, and that data may or may not still be available. And there wasn't a ton of political discussion - and certainly nothing about (now) current politicians. But right now, if I say "A sucks", it's probably saved online forever, and depending on where I say it, it's easily available to LLM-derived bots. Including to those currently tearing down civilization who might have taken a bribe from "A" without my knowledge to punish anyone who dislikes them - or who take a bribe from "A" in the future. And "LLM agents" will be deployed to scour the 'net for such sentiments, find those who they can easily connect to a real identity, and possibly punish them retroactively. At this point, I'm keeping my head "down" 100x more than I did just 6 months ago. Heck, I worry if even this post is too much and I'll regret it later. I used to go online as a kid to "escape a not-so-great reality" (geek/nerd, not a great athlete, not popular, etc). These days, I long to "disconnect" to escape. But I'm a software guy, and if I get off the "keep up with the latest tech" treadmill too long, I risk losing my livelihood..
- chuckadams 2y ago
  Whenever I post, I always have that Violent Femmes lyric in my head: “I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record.”

gchamonlive 2y ago

I agree. It's less like treating data as something alien and pathologic, and more like an extension of yourself and your identity that's just harder to control and to maintain.

Aerroon 2y ago
The problem isn't the data, it's how other people react to it.

footlose_3815 2y ago

This reminds me of when the news channels back in 2014 always said "Harmless metadata" as damage control after the Snowden leaks. Compromised smart devices has been leveraged to hurt people all around the world. Do you think you are immune? A very low-key life would really help, but the next bored hacker is waiting for the right metadata to be combined and they will leverage it against you.

genewitch 2y ago
My favorite was "hashed minutae of your biometrics"
- weard_beard 2y ago
  Can you please rephrase that, I find the sensory experience overwhelming.

gblargg 2y ago

I often find myself relying on my "digital echoes" to piece together something I did, and when. It's useful to make up for one's lack of logging what they do.