7 ms·

Immigration will solve the talent war in the valley

28 points by rvivek 14y ago

polyfractal 14y ago
This just in: you can be a quality programmer even if you don't live in the Valley. That said, I imagine H-1b paperwork is dreadful to deal with. A lot of smaller companies may choose to ignore international candidates simply because they don't want to deal with the paperwork
- ed209 14y ago
  that, and the fact that since June 11th 2012, the next batch of visas do not entitle you to work in the US until October 2013.
- untog 14y ago
  It is awful, but that's why you get a lawyer. It costs a few thousand dollars, which is not a huge expenditure (your laptop probably costs around the same). More difficulties often emerge in 'prevailing wage'- H1B workers have to be paid a salary the government has decided is sensible. That doesn't factor in things like equity, so a lot of startups can be burnt on that.
- stock_toaster 14y ago
  I wonder why more companies don't open development offices in other areas of the country (or even the state!), if they are having such a hard time hiring in the valley.
  - hnwh 14y ago
    They have this inertia (or fear?) against working remotely.. which is ironic for internet based tech companies..
- tlogan 14y ago
  Not really - just hire a lawyer. They do everything. It will cost you less than recruiter.
goatforce5 14y ago
A reminder to my fellow Australians that E-3 visas are relatively easy to get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa
shalmanese 14y ago
"[2] It’s not true for designers. I don’t know why, but the odds of finding a good one here is much higher than India." Design is more about culture than engineering. Design is a more hands on skill that requires contextual learning. Design requires creativity better fostered by a Western education system than an Eastern one. Design draws on a legacy of history and the history of the East is different from the history of the West. Design requires a sense of humor and humor is different in every country.
- pclark 14y ago
  This description of design ("Design") is fantastically pretentious. You must be a designer! :)
  - shalmanese 14y ago
    This description of description of design is fantastically pretentious. You must be British :)
anusinha 14y ago
FYI the link to interviewstreet.com is not working.
- rvivek 14y ago
  Fixed. Thanks
zinssmeister 14y ago
"...fears that immigrants are going to eat away local jobs. This is SO wrong." I am not sure you successfully explained why you think they are wrong. I'm an immigrant from Europe and in my opinion it is easy math. There is 1 job and if you fill it it's gone. So you can either fill it with Americans or an immigrant (like me). It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open the gates and expect all these foreigners to come in and build companies that hire more Americans. But maybe I'm missing something?!
- rm999 14y ago
  Very little about the economy is zero sum. A good employee can help grow a company to the point where more people need to be hired.
- udit99 14y ago
  > It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open the gates and expect all these foreigners to come in and build companies that hire more Americans. According to a paper titled "Silicon Valley's New Immigrant Enterpreneurs)"[1], Indian and Chinese enterpreneurs were responsible for 24% of the technology businesses started between 1980 and 1988. So the idea is definitely backed by statistical evidence. Besides, if there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech? [1]http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_699ASR.pdf http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_699ASR.pdf
  - rada 14y ago
    Your 24% number is grossly misleading. Quoting your source: [...] Estimate of ethnic entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley was obtained by identifying all businesses with CEOs having Chinese and Indian surnames in a Dun & Bradstreet database of technology firms started since 1980. According to this count, close to one-quarter (24 percent) of Silicon Valley’s technology firms in 1998 had Chinese or Indian executives. Technology company executives are salaried employees - even at C-level, they do not create tech jobs any more than the HR department. Moreover, it's a well-known fact that C-level executives rarely come from founders (example: http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-founders-can-make-solid-ceos/ http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-fou...). Not to mention that an ethnically Indian/Chinese person is not the same as an immigrant from India/China. If there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech? Because "we" don't pay enough? Because "we" won't look at anyone over 35? Because "we" demand a statistically improbable combination of skills plus open-source experience plus hobby projects? Because "we" equate talent with blogging? The list goes on and on. (FWIW, I am an immigrant).
samstave 14y ago
Whats it going to do for the cost of living, though? The valley's housing is WAY too expensive - and having an influx of more engineers/talent is not going to make the cost or quality of life here any better.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
The h-1b paperwork is dreadful. I asked Tom Campbell once if he would support pushing legislation to create an h1-ht (high tech) visa, which there are unlimited quantities of and restrict your residency and ability to work to Washington/Oregon/California (the west coast). The half serious/half not comment came after he was describing the variety of anti-immigration lobbies in Washington with big contingents from the 'heartland' trying to keep foreigners out.
- untog 14y ago
  restrict your residency and ability to work to Washington/Oregon/California (the west coast) Why on earth would anyone do that? There are tech communities all over the country, you know. Boston and New York are two main ones that come to mind but there's also Raleigh, Austin...
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  the variety of anti-immigration lobbies in Washington The sad part is there's really only one, organized into about 20 different lobbying groups but (mostly) centrally funded from the estate of a dead multi-millionaire.
tocomment 14y ago
Is doing a start-up really risk free like he says? How you make sure you get aqui-hired if you fail?
- rvivek 14y ago
  Let's say you're a group of 3 ex-facebookers; don't you think you can easily find a ton of companies in the valley that'll pick up for talent? Is it going to be worth $3M is debatable but surely there's a good chance that it'll be a pretty sweet deal.
  - tocomment 14y ago
    So you have to live in the valley?
fiatmoney 14y ago
Data on who is using the H1B program and how much they're paying is available here. http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/quarterlydata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/quarterlydata.cfm There seems to be a more-processed version here. http://www.h1bwage.com/ http://www.h1bwage.com/ "Talented hacker" does not necessarily equal "median H1B recipient".
tlogan 14y ago
I think immigration will not help - but I would like to make H1-B more liberal. I have friends running startups in other parts of the world (India, Romania, ...), and it seems there is talent war everywhere. Yes there is a lot of mediocre programmers around but talent is very sparse.
wavesounds 14y ago
I've never understood this so called 'talent war' There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever? Or if your companies to lazy to train people then pay high enough salaries so these people go train themselves. I think its fine to bring in a few extra smart immigrants to provide a different perspective but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else. If there's a lack of talent then I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now.
- untog 14y ago
  I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now. What startup is going to wait over a year for their prospective coder to be able to do his job? This is something the education system should be doing. If it isn't, by all means fix it, but don't make startup CEOs spend over a year training employees.
  - wavesounds 14y ago
    I was referring more to the googles and facebooks of the world. This recent HN post made me think outside the country was the last place start-ups would look for employees: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4346351 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4346351
    - rvivek 14y ago
      Why would googles and facebooks do that? It's not their core and everyone wants to move fast.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever?" Because the lead time to go from "has basic math and logic skills" to "competent programmer" is on the order of years, if not over a decade. Do you want to put someone on your payroll for years before you see one tiny iota of productivity out of them? Or worse, have them be a negative drain on your productivity? > "but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else" This isn't true. The US has been extremely reliant on skilled immigration as its power base throughout the 20th century. Immigrants are over-represented in academia as well as all corners of basic research, they are also over-represented in the industries that spawned Silicon Valley (i.e., the defense and aerospace R&D that gave birth to both the funding, cultural, and educational foundation that birthed the semiconductor industry, followed by the software industry). > "You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now." Then do it. I challenge you. Starting today, from someone with the proper high school level education but no relevant college education (i.e., no STEM degree), develop someone into a competent programmer capable of writing production-ready code by the end of October 2013. Put your money where your mouth is.
gdilla 14y ago
Another way to look at it, skilled immigration gets the US educated workers subsidized by foreign tax payers. If they line up a job, they step foot on US soil being a tax payer, in both sales tax and income tax. A net benefit to the US.
RealGeek 14y ago
The problem with H1-B is not the limit; the main problem is its abuse. Indian body shops like TCS, Infosys, and Wipro etc. continue to abuse H1-B visas. These companies work like a huge recruitment and immigration agency. There are thousands of employees of these companies sitting idle in India with a H1-B visa in hand. They won’t go to work in US anytime soon because their Indian employer doesn’t need them move to US. These companies blindly apply for thousands of visas even when they don’t need it, just in case they get a new client. These body shops waste most of the H1-B quota and create a block for genuine recruits by companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft. The worst offenders are the downright fraudulent organizations like http://www.ebsolutionsinc.com http://www.ebsolutionsinc.com . Does it look like a company who needs to import thousands of IT workers every year? This company alone accounts of thousands of H1-B visas every year, and there are thousands of shell companies like these. These companies are not only abusing the system, but what they are doing is downright illegal. This is how they work: They hold immigration seminars all over India and assure people a job in US and H1-B visa. They recruit thousands of candidates in India and charge them a fee of $8,000 to $20,000 upfront. These candidates are not only engineers; they are IT workers (who can’t code), teachers, accountants and nurses. Most of these candidates are not qualified enough, many have fake degrees and most can’t speak even speak English. Their visas are sponsored by their shell recruitment agencies in US (supported with fake documents). These candidates do not even have a real job offer yet; the recruitment agency produces a fake job offer and keeps them on their own payroll. Upon approval of H1-B visa, these candidates arrive in US with no clue about what comes next. Their recruiters throw them in dorms with miserable living conditions. The recruitment agency trains them some English and Interview 101 and arranges several interviews in US companies. The American companies contract these workers from the recruitment agents, usually at 50% of the market salary. These workers start working for the American corporations, but they stay on the payroll of their recruiters. Their recruitment agents usually take a cut of 30%-50% from their salary every month. [Edit] One of my friend runs a body shop in US and imports around 400 workers every year. Word 'camps' changed to 'dorms'. Related links: http://em.gmnews.com/news/2008-06-18/front_page/008.html http://em.gmnews.com/news/2008-06-18/front_page/008.html http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-Outsourcing-Solutions-Best-Opportunity-For-Physiotherapist-To-Secure-Job-In-USA-Apply-Today-Mumbai.png http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-Ou...
123123m12m 14y ago
it's something that engineers/technical people never ever understand. You can not classify people on some db just to do something not done.
kops 14y ago
As an Indian, I am actually pretty happy that not all of our best engineers can leave the country even if they wanted to. What makes you think that America deserves/needs a good engineer more than India itself? Disclaimer: I am not in India right now. But having been educated practically for free in a Govt. college, I hope I will be able to repay some of my dues soon. At the very least Govt of India, should be able to tax the runaways like me.
- vijaygj 14y ago
  I think it's even better if someone comes to the US, gets some exposure, learn many soft skills and then go back to India, instead of not coming here at all.
  - kops 14y ago
    I won't deny the value of exposure. But I think soft skills and a lot of other things are over hyped. Some of the best engineers I know can't put together a sentence in English. I can't speak for how it is in US because I haven't been there. But I really can't think of anything that can be done only in valley but not in India. But yeah again, I can't be so sure, because I have seen the things only from one side.
    - vijaygj 14y ago
      How about networking? e.g. meetup.com. I found very good speakers giving talks in my area of interest. About soft skills, I felt considerable writing efforts are required here as part of the normal master's degree. I am doing my master's degree in CS here. Even if I am writing a simple report on some project I spend extra hours to think from the reader's perspective. That builds up writing skills. You get constructive feedback if you present something. That builds up the presentation skills. May be this is a personal experience. I also felt that you start appreciating positive things about your country more but this experience may not be specific to US.
- RealGeek 14y ago
  Engineers should at least pay their fees if they plan to abandon India. Why put burden of your emigration on tax payers?
gergles 14y ago
The point of H-1bs is to depress the prices of labor for any given job. (Econ 101: Increase supply, reduce cost.) So, no, I'm not really interested in increasing the supply of skilled labor any further and driving prices for my labor any lower. The "talent war" is good for everyone with skills that works in the Valley. Feature, not a bug.
- winter_blue 14y ago
  Actually, there's a specific pre-condition to granting an H1-B visa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Application http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Appli... It basically states, the employee must be paid the prevailing wage or higher. There are probably employers who flout this rule, but it isn't legal. When used legitimately, H1-B does increase the supply of talent in the valley.
  - rada 14y ago
    The prevailing wage rule is a joke, for several reasons: 1. The ostensible reason for the H-1B program is a shortage of technical know-how, yet most H-1Bs are under 30 and most unemployed Americans are over 35. Wages comparison is moot when you pit junior jobs against senior jobs - again, in view of experience being the supposed goal of the program. 2. Wages do not account for working hours. If you work 12-hour days, your salary is effectively significantly lower than if you work 8-hour days. 3. Wages do not account for the downward pressure on market competition. If you are handcuffed into your job per your visa conditions, you can't shop for better offers elsewhere. Better explanation here: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
  - abhimishra 14y ago
    PERM regulations are also quite lax in MANY ways, and companies abuse this in order to be able to hire at a lower wage. For example, labor certification (to determine that there is a labor shortage that requires outside talent) is very easy to game: they can run 2 Sunday newspaper ads in the local newspaper to satisfy the primary labor cert requirement: http://tinyurl.com/czhop2f http://tinyurl.com/czhop2f How many people have newspaper subscriptions anymore, and how many tech workers look for jobs in the newspaper? It's also easy to game prevailing wage requirements by conducting surveys yourself or playing with the subjective terms of the law regarding 'comparable skillsets' etc
nostromo 14y ago
One strategy most startups miss is the NAFTA TN-1 "visa" for Canadian and Mexican citizens (I use quotes because it's not really a visa apparently). We hired a Canadian employee using this status and there really is very little paperwork. He needed a letter describing his work (which must put him in an acceptable bucket) which he presented at the US/Canada border and an hour or so later he was in. It has to be renewed every three years, but can be renewed indefinitely. Waterloo puts out great engineers -- engineers with fewer options with the implosion of RIM. So, look north!
- rapind 14y ago
  Are you sure about that? I'm a Canuck and have worked in the US under a TN-1 a few times, and I had to renew it every year, and initially my sponsoring company had to prove they had been looking to fill the position locally for a certain amount of time without any luck (fairly easy to do with a classified ad, etc.). Also, only certain occupations qualify at any given time.
  - nostromo 14y ago
    It was upped from 1 to 3 years. You can read more here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_in_the_USA http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_i...
    - rapind 14y ago
      Very good to know (and wow). Thanks.
- gte910h 14y ago
  I've heard great things about University of Toronto grads as well

28 points by rvivek 14y ago

This just in: you can be a quality programmer even if you don't live in the Valley. That said, I imagine H-1b paperwork is dreadful to deal with. A lot of smaller companies may choose to ignore international candidates simply because they don't want to deal with the paperwork

ed209 14y ago
that, and the fact that since June 11th 2012, the next batch of visas do not entitle you to work in the US until October 2013.
untog 14y ago
It is awful, but that's why you get a lawyer. It costs a few thousand dollars, which is not a huge expenditure (your laptop probably costs around the same). More difficulties often emerge in 'prevailing wage'- H1B workers have to be paid a salary the government has decided is sensible. That doesn't factor in things like equity, so a lot of startups can be burnt on that.
stock_toaster 14y ago
I wonder why more companies don't open development offices in other areas of the country (or even the state!), if they are having such a hard time hiring in the valley.
- hnwh 14y ago
  They have this inertia (or fear?) against working remotely.. which is ironic for internet based tech companies..
tlogan 14y ago
Not really - just hire a lawyer. They do everything. It will cost you less than recruiter.

goatforce5 14y ago

A reminder to my fellow Australians that E-3 visas are relatively easy to get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa

shalmanese 14y ago

"[2] It’s not true for designers. I don’t know why, but the odds of finding a good one here is much higher than India." Design is more about culture than engineering. Design is a more hands on skill that requires contextual learning. Design requires creativity better fostered by a Western education system than an Eastern one. Design draws on a legacy of history and the history of the East is different from the history of the West. Design requires a sense of humor and humor is different in every country.

pclark 14y ago
This description of design ("Design") is fantastically pretentious. You must be a designer! :)
- shalmanese 14y ago
  This description of description of design is fantastically pretentious. You must be British :)

anusinha 14y ago

FYI the link to interviewstreet.com is not working.

rvivek 14y ago
Fixed. Thanks

zinssmeister 14y ago

"...fears that immigrants are going to eat away local jobs. This is SO wrong." I am not sure you successfully explained why you think they are wrong. I'm an immigrant from Europe and in my opinion it is easy math. There is 1 job and if you fill it it's gone. So you can either fill it with Americans or an immigrant (like me). It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open the gates and expect all these foreigners to come in and build companies that hire more Americans. But maybe I'm missing something?!

rm999 14y ago
Very little about the economy is zero sum. A good employee can help grow a company to the point where more people need to be hired.
udit99 14y ago
> It's kinda foolish to think all you have to do is open the gates and expect all these foreigners to come in and build companies that hire more Americans. According to a paper titled "Silicon Valley's New Immigrant Enterpreneurs)"[1], Indian and Chinese enterpreneurs were responsible for 24% of the technology businesses started between 1980 and 1988. So the idea is definitely backed by statistical evidence. Besides, if there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech? [1]http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_699ASR.pdf http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_699ASR.pdf
- rada 14y ago
  Your 24% number is grossly misleading. Quoting your source: [...] Estimate of ethnic entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley was obtained by identifying all businesses with CEOs having Chinese and Indian surnames in a Dun & Bradstreet database of technology firms started since 1980. According to this count, close to one-quarter (24 percent) of Silicon Valley’s technology firms in 1998 had Chinese or Indian executives. Technology company executives are salaried employees - even at C-level, they do not create tech jobs any more than the HR department. Moreover, it's a well-known fact that C-level executives rarely come from founders (example: http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-founders-can-make-solid-ceos/ http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/29/why-startup-fou...). Not to mention that an ethnically Indian/Chinese person is not the same as an immigrant from India/China. If there are qualified Americans who can fill these jobs already, why exactly do we have a talent shortage in tech? Because "we" don't pay enough? Because "we" won't look at anyone over 35? Because "we" demand a statistically improbable combination of skills plus open-source experience plus hobby projects? Because "we" equate talent with blogging? The list goes on and on. (FWIW, I am an immigrant).

samstave 14y ago

Whats it going to do for the cost of living, though? The valley's housing is WAY too expensive - and having an influx of more engineers/talent is not going to make the cost or quality of life here any better.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

The h-1b paperwork is dreadful. I asked Tom Campbell once if he would support pushing legislation to create an h1-ht (high tech) visa, which there are unlimited quantities of and restrict your residency and ability to work to Washington/Oregon/California (the west coast). The half serious/half not comment came after he was describing the variety of anti-immigration lobbies in Washington with big contingents from the 'heartland' trying to keep foreigners out.

untog 14y ago
restrict your residency and ability to work to Washington/Oregon/California (the west coast) Why on earth would anyone do that? There are tech communities all over the country, you know. Boston and New York are two main ones that come to mind but there's also Raleigh, Austin...
anigbrowl 14y ago
the variety of anti-immigration lobbies in Washington The sad part is there's really only one, organized into about 20 different lobbying groups but (mostly) centrally funded from the estate of a dead multi-millionaire.

tocomment 14y ago

Is doing a start-up really risk free like he says? How you make sure you get aqui-hired if you fail?

rvivek 14y ago
Let's say you're a group of 3 ex-facebookers; don't you think you can easily find a ton of companies in the valley that'll pick up for talent? Is it going to be worth $3M is debatable but surely there's a good chance that it'll be a pretty sweet deal.
- tocomment 14y ago
  So you have to live in the valley?

fiatmoney 14y ago

Data on who is using the H1B program and how much they're paying is available here. http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/quarterlydata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/quarterlydata.cfm There seems to be a more-processed version here. http://www.h1bwage.com/ http://www.h1bwage.com/ "Talented hacker" does not necessarily equal "median H1B recipient".

tlogan 14y ago

I think immigration will not help - but I would like to make H1-B more liberal. I have friends running startups in other parts of the world (India, Romania, ...), and it seems there is talent war everywhere. Yes there is a lot of mediocre programmers around but talent is very sparse.

wavesounds 14y ago

I've never understood this so called 'talent war' There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever? Or if your companies to lazy to train people then pay high enough salaries so these people go train themselves. I think its fine to bring in a few extra smart immigrants to provide a different perspective but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else. If there's a lack of talent then I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now.

untog 14y ago
I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now. What startup is going to wait over a year for their prospective coder to be able to do his job? This is something the education system should be doing. If it isn't, by all means fix it, but don't make startup CEOs spend over a year training employees.
- wavesounds 14y ago
  I was referring more to the googles and facebooks of the world. This recent HN post made me think outside the country was the last place start-ups would look for employees: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4346351 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4346351
  - rvivek 14y ago
    Why would googles and facebooks do that? It's not their core and everyone wants to move fast.
potatolicious 14y ago
> "There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever?" Because the lead time to go from "has basic math and logic skills" to "competent programmer" is on the order of years, if not over a decade. Do you want to put someone on your payroll for years before you see one tiny iota of productivity out of them? Or worse, have them be a negative drain on your productivity? > "but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else" This isn't true. The US has been extremely reliant on skilled immigration as its power base throughout the 20th century. Immigrants are over-represented in academia as well as all corners of basic research, they are also over-represented in the industries that spawned Silicon Valley (i.e., the defense and aerospace R&D that gave birth to both the funding, cultural, and educational foundation that birthed the semiconductor industry, followed by the software industry). > "You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now." Then do it. I challenge you. Starting today, from someone with the proper high school level education but no relevant college education (i.e., no STEM degree), develop someone into a competent programmer capable of writing production-ready code by the end of October 2013. Put your money where your mouth is.

gdilla 14y ago

Another way to look at it, skilled immigration gets the US educated workers subsidized by foreign tax payers. If they line up a job, they step foot on US soil being a tax payer, in both sales tax and income tax. A net benefit to the US.

RealGeek 14y ago

The problem with H1-B is not the limit; the main problem is its abuse. Indian body shops like TCS, Infosys, and Wipro etc. continue to abuse H1-B visas. These companies work like a huge recruitment and immigration agency. There are thousands of employees of these companies sitting idle in India with a H1-B visa in hand. They won’t go to work in US anytime soon because their Indian employer doesn’t need them move to US. These companies blindly apply for thousands of visas even when they don’t need it, just in case they get a new client. These body shops waste most of the H1-B quota and create a block for genuine recruits by companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft. The worst offenders are the downright fraudulent organizations like http://www.ebsolutionsinc.com http://www.ebsolutionsinc.com . Does it look like a company who needs to import thousands of IT workers every year? This company alone accounts of thousands of H1-B visas every year, and there are thousands of shell companies like these. These companies are not only abusing the system, but what they are doing is downright illegal. This is how they work: They hold immigration seminars all over India and assure people a job in US and H1-B visa. They recruit thousands of candidates in India and charge them a fee of $8,000 to $20,000 upfront. These candidates are not only engineers; they are IT workers (who can’t code), teachers, accountants and nurses. Most of these candidates are not qualified enough, many have fake degrees and most can’t speak even speak English. Their visas are sponsored by their shell recruitment agencies in US (supported with fake documents). These candidates do not even have a real job offer yet; the recruitment agency produces a fake job offer and keeps them on their own payroll. Upon approval of H1-B visa, these candidates arrive in US with no clue about what comes next. Their recruiters throw them in dorms with miserable living conditions. The recruitment agency trains them some English and Interview 101 and arranges several interviews in US companies. The American companies contract these workers from the recruitment agents, usually at 50% of the market salary. These workers start working for the American corporations, but they stay on the payroll of their recruiters. Their recruitment agents usually take a cut of 30%-50% from their salary every month. [Edit] One of my friend runs a body shop in US and imports around 400 workers every year. Word 'camps' changed to 'dorms'. Related links: http://em.gmnews.com/news/2008-06-18/front_page/008.html http://em.gmnews.com/news/2008-06-18/front_page/008.html http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-Outsourcing-Solutions-Best-Opportunity-For-Physiotherapist-To-Secure-Job-In-USA-Apply-Today-Mumbai.png http://bhartiads.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Medical-Ou...

123123m12m 14y ago

it's something that engineers/technical people never ever understand. You can not classify people on some db just to do something not done.

kops 14y ago

As an Indian, I am actually pretty happy that not all of our best engineers can leave the country even if they wanted to. What makes you think that America deserves/needs a good engineer more than India itself? Disclaimer: I am not in India right now. But having been educated practically for free in a Govt. college, I hope I will be able to repay some of my dues soon. At the very least Govt of India, should be able to tax the runaways like me.

vijaygj 14y ago
I think it's even better if someone comes to the US, gets some exposure, learn many soft skills and then go back to India, instead of not coming here at all.
- kops 14y ago
  I won't deny the value of exposure. But I think soft skills and a lot of other things are over hyped. Some of the best engineers I know can't put together a sentence in English. I can't speak for how it is in US because I haven't been there. But I really can't think of anything that can be done only in valley but not in India. But yeah again, I can't be so sure, because I have seen the things only from one side.
  - vijaygj 14y ago
    How about networking? e.g. meetup.com. I found very good speakers giving talks in my area of interest. About soft skills, I felt considerable writing efforts are required here as part of the normal master's degree. I am doing my master's degree in CS here. Even if I am writing a simple report on some project I spend extra hours to think from the reader's perspective. That builds up writing skills. You get constructive feedback if you present something. That builds up the presentation skills. May be this is a personal experience. I also felt that you start appreciating positive things about your country more but this experience may not be specific to US.
RealGeek 14y ago
Engineers should at least pay their fees if they plan to abandon India. Why put burden of your emigration on tax payers?

gergles 14y ago

The point of H-1bs is to depress the prices of labor for any given job. (Econ 101: Increase supply, reduce cost.) So, no, I'm not really interested in increasing the supply of skilled labor any further and driving prices for my labor any lower. The "talent war" is good for everyone with skills that works in the Valley. Feature, not a bug.

winter_blue 14y ago
Actually, there's a specific pre-condition to granting an H1-B visa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Application http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Appli... It basically states, the employee must be paid the prevailing wage or higher. There are probably employers who flout this rule, but it isn't legal. When used legitimately, H1-B does increase the supply of talent in the valley.
- rada 14y ago
  The prevailing wage rule is a joke, for several reasons: 1. The ostensible reason for the H-1B program is a shortage of technical know-how, yet most H-1Bs are under 30 and most unemployed Americans are over 35. Wages comparison is moot when you pit junior jobs against senior jobs - again, in view of experience being the supposed goal of the program. 2. Wages do not account for working hours. If you work 12-hour days, your salary is effectively significantly lower than if you work 8-hour days. 3. Wages do not account for the downward pressure on market competition. If you are handcuffed into your job per your visa conditions, you can't shop for better offers elsewhere. Better explanation here: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
- abhimishra 14y ago
  PERM regulations are also quite lax in MANY ways, and companies abuse this in order to be able to hire at a lower wage. For example, labor certification (to determine that there is a labor shortage that requires outside talent) is very easy to game: they can run 2 Sunday newspaper ads in the local newspaper to satisfy the primary labor cert requirement: http://tinyurl.com/czhop2f http://tinyurl.com/czhop2f How many people have newspaper subscriptions anymore, and how many tech workers look for jobs in the newspaper? It's also easy to game prevailing wage requirements by conducting surveys yourself or playing with the subjective terms of the law regarding 'comparable skillsets' etc

nostromo 14y ago

One strategy most startups miss is the NAFTA TN-1 "visa" for Canadian and Mexican citizens (I use quotes because it's not really a visa apparently). We hired a Canadian employee using this status and there really is very little paperwork. He needed a letter describing his work (which must put him in an acceptable bucket) which he presented at the US/Canada border and an hour or so later he was in. It has to be renewed every three years, but can be renewed indefinitely. Waterloo puts out great engineers -- engineers with fewer options with the implosion of RIM. So, look north!

rapind 14y ago
Are you sure about that? I'm a Canuck and have worked in the US under a TN-1 a few times, and I had to renew it every year, and initially my sponsoring company had to prove they had been looking to fill the position locally for a certain amount of time without any luck (fairly easy to do with a classified ad, etc.). Also, only certain occupations qualify at any given time.
- nostromo 14y ago
  It was upped from 1 to 3 years. You can read more here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_in_the_USA http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status#Canadian_citizens_i...
  - rapind 14y ago
    Very good to know (and wow). Thanks.
gte910h 14y ago
I've heard great things about University of Toronto grads as well