5 ms·

The Real Book (2021)

156 points by Tomte 2y ago

pvg 2y ago
Threads 4 and 2 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34536638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34536638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26737142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26737142
sintezcs 2y ago
99% invisible is one of my most favourite podcasts, I recommend it every time when I talk about podcasts to someone
- sieste 2y ago
  It's the first podcast I ever heard of, when my friend first explained that word to me. Glad to see it's still around.
vunderba 2y ago
As an aside, fake books are a great way to get your feet wet learning how to extemporize while still having some guidance around the chord progression and melody. If you have an iPad, there's an app called iReal Pro with loads of lead sheets that add in some accompaniment (drums, guitar, etc.) so you can "play along" as well. https://www.irealpro.com https://www.irealpro.com
- bobbiechen 2y ago
  iReal Pro is awesome. When playing music with new people (especially jazz), it feels like everyone has it, and you can quickly make sure you're playing the same charts. It's also available on Android, and it's a one-time payment, no-subscription app. Easily one of the most valuable music purchases I've made.
  - commakozzi 2y ago
    it's also great being able to change tempo, style, key, etc. iReal Pro is used by every pro musician i know around town
- junebash 2y ago
  [dead]
- neonscribe 2y ago
  iReal Pro is a great resource, but what it provides are not lead sheets, they are just chord charts. Lead sheets have the melody of the song in standard notation, along with chord names and sometimes lyrics. iReal Pro's charts give chord names only.
  - em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
    I get very frustrated with cats on the stage who rely too much on the iReal Pro. If they don't know the melody, then they easily get lost when, for instance, an intro or other section is skipped (such as when the singer re-enters on the bridge after solos), and in general their comping tends to not be aware of how the melody fits in with the changes. At least when reading a leadsheet, readers know how the melody and harmony interact and can better play fills around the melody.
    - analog31 2y ago
      Indeed it's worth mentioning, to a general audience, that iRealPro only displays the harmonies (chord changes) for tunes, and not melodies. Whereas, "fake books" include both melody and harmony. The reason is that copyright only covers melody and lyrics, not harmony. So the harmonies are essentially public domain.
- CephalopodMD 2y ago
  iReal pro is the new real book
  - shermantanktop 2y ago
    For good and for bad. Its strengths are available to all and its gaps (melody!) and quirks (lack of variation) impact everyone’s development.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      This was true of the real book too. Quite a lot of the songs have incorrect transcriptions, sometimes they use a different key than the original, or the "original" key when a different one is more commonly heard. All editions of it I've seen have this to a significant extent, of course with differences making it even more confusion sometimes. And a lot of natural variation has been elided with these tools, a lot of jazz classics I'm pretty sure didn't really have a "standard" version until after the real book took over; different fake books were popular in different cities and so there was regional performance variation that we don't see much of anymore. There are probably novel issues introduced by the ireal fakes but a lot of them are the same problems my grandfather was observing as a young working musician when the real book became so dominant. They are extremely real downsides of these tools though.
      - shermantanktop 2y ago
        Yep, it’s just the learning process. But when there’s a monoculture of learning tools, the downsides can become a communal gap. A looper pedal and an AirStep Play are helpful antidotes for me.
WorkerBee28474 2y ago
This seems to be another embodiment of Gabe Newell's "Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem."
etyp 2y ago
The Real Book was pretty fundamental helping me learn jazz. I think a lot of jazz people look down on it (or those who need it), but I didn't really get deep enough to see that. There's a short video from Adam Neely that opened my eyes to that a bit. https://youtu.be/dD0e5e6wI_A?feature=shared https://youtu.be/dD0e5e6wI_A?feature=shared
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  Who looks down on the Real Book?
  - brian_spiering 2y ago
    The Real Book is an excellent resource for what it is. However since it is the primary book of jazz, it can have too much of an influence. The Real Book has a limited number of songs and entire subgenres of jazz are not represented. The structure of the songs is relatively narrow. Songs are rarely added.
    - neonscribe 2y ago
      There are now six volumes of Real Books from Hal Leonard, plus a several others organized around genres or artists, plus the Sher Music books. A few thousand songs. Not every player has every book, but they are all available. Most songs are available for purchase for a few dollars each as downloadable PDFs.
  - ahipple 2y ago
    Anybody who's worked with it for any length of time knows that the charts contained are good enough for jam session purposes but either contain inaccuracies when compared to the canonical versions of songs or may have been based on the "wrong" (according to some) canonical versions. Working this out means developing your ears and listening both to the original recordings and to the musicians you're playing with in a given situation. Many people end up in a place where they're just using their ears and memory to skip the book entirely, which in some situations is an essential skill. Most level-headed people I think regard the book as a useful tool, a step in the growth journey. As egos and insecurities enter the mix you'll occasionally find somebody who'll proclaim that the Real Book is purely a crutch and you should start and end with the ear-training bits or you're "doing it wrong".
pjdesno 2y ago
Someone I know who went to Berklee in the early 90s said that it was a required text for certain jazz classes, and you had to buy it from a bootlegger.
- evereverever 2y ago
  I went to school in Minnesota and we had to go to a certain music store and ask a specific employee for the book. I believe it was $50. It was basically required to play jazz.
  - mvidal01 2y ago
    I remember when my brother (a teenager at the time) bought his book he had to give his music teachers name and the employee called for a reference.
- sbuttgereit 2y ago
  I was at Berklee in the late 80s and that's a pretty accurate statement both for the requirement and procurement. Your friend was there close enough to the time that I was there that it was probably the same thing. There was "a guy" that hung out around the school... I'd usually see him somewhere around the intersection of Mass Ave and Boylston... And he was known as the guy to talk to if you wanted a real book (and probably other stuff as well). Every once in a while you'd see him just running off down the street like he was being chased or something (never saw a pursuer) though it was said every once in a while they'd try and busy him. I didn't actually get my copy from him ... My high school band teacher was a pretty accomplished bebop guy that burned out playing in the house bands in Vegas and "retired" to teaching.... So he hooked those students of his up that had an interest in small group playing or gigging. So had my copy before going to Berklee.
- dhosek 2y ago
  I remember a friend managed to get a copy of a real book in the 90s and was so excited about it. When I sat down to play some tunes out of it, I was unfamiliar with the notation where Cmin7 was written C-7 and CMaj7 was C△. I figured out the latter, but thought the former was Cdim7 which led to some weird harmonizations before I figured it out.
MrMcCall 2y ago
One of my favorite jokes: Guy decides to go deep into Africa up the Congo River. After getting to the last easily accessible entry into the river, they board the smallish boat to begin the arduous trek deep into darkest Africa. A day or three into the journey they start hearing distant drums, then as they continued after some days it got slowly louder. The guy started getting spooked and asks the Captain, "What's up with those drums?" The Captain replies, "Don't worry. Everything's perfectly fine so long as they continue." After more days of journeying, suddenly, one night, the drums just stop cold. Fearfully, the guy inquires, "WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!" The Captain replies, "Bass solo."
- h-c-c 2y ago
  A married couple hasn't spoken to each other in 10 years. Their daughter seeks out the best marriage counselor she can find and gets her parents to agree to go to a session. After their first visit the daughter follows up with the therapist and asks if he could get them to talk to each other. "Not this time, but we have another appointment next week. I'll take another crack at it." The parents show up to their next appointment. The therapist is trying everything he can think of to get them to speak to each other. Because he has a reputation to uphold he's getting a little worried. He tells the daughter, "We've got another appointment next week and I've got one last thing I can try." When the married couple steps into the therapist's office, therapist doesn't say a word but pulls out an upright bass out of his closet and starts playing a solo. They immediately start talking.
  - glimshe 2y ago
    You two! Bass solos can be great! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0PN8RrEZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0PN8RrEZI
    - MrMcCall 2y ago
      Thanks, I've never heard of them before. Excellent. For whatever reason, we love this session by this incredible jazz band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pYHCGYJbw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pYHCGYJbw0 "Enjoy." --Daniel Tosh
titaphraz 2y ago
It's insane to think that so many owe so much to an contraband book. There's a very good podcast about (music) copyright and how it's used and abused. The podcast is mainly about Men At Work's "Down Under" and the crazy copyright case that hit them: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-xqda4-23ebff8b https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-xqda4-23ebff8b
seabre 2y ago
This brings up a lot of memories. I got lost on the way to jazz school and studied CS instead. Still went to school on a partial music scholarship. Wound-up playing so much anyway that it killed my grades. Worked out in the end, lol. If you have a copy of the "illegal" Real Book you'll notice that there are a lot of Steve Swallow tunes in there :-) There are definitely people that look down on using the Real Books/iReal as a crutch. IMHO it's not a huge deal. But, it is widely encouraged to learn as many commonly called tunes as you can though. You can find lists of those in various places: https://www.shermusic.com/1883217040.php https://www.shermusic.com/1883217040.php and https://www.shermusic.com/1883217482.php https://www.shermusic.com/1883217482.php for example. The reason for that honestly is that you will find yourself in a scenario where something called isn't in your book. Popular chord changes get re-used a lot, so the more material you know can help you "figure out" the unknown tune quickly. Called tune just rhythm changes? Blues changes? So What/Impressions changes? etc.
mirawelner 2y ago
It brings me so much happiness that there is enough overlap between software people and jazz playing people that this is on the front page

156 points by Tomte 2y ago

pvg 2y ago

Threads 4 and 2 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34536638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34536638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26737142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26737142

sintezcs 2y ago

99% invisible is one of my most favourite podcasts, I recommend it every time when I talk about podcasts to someone

sieste 2y ago
It's the first podcast I ever heard of, when my friend first explained that word to me. Glad to see it's still around.

vunderba 2y ago

As an aside, fake books are a great way to get your feet wet learning how to extemporize while still having some guidance around the chord progression and melody. If you have an iPad, there's an app called iReal Pro with loads of lead sheets that add in some accompaniment (drums, guitar, etc.) so you can "play along" as well. https://www.irealpro.com https://www.irealpro.com

bobbiechen 2y ago
iReal Pro is awesome. When playing music with new people (especially jazz), it feels like everyone has it, and you can quickly make sure you're playing the same charts. It's also available on Android, and it's a one-time payment, no-subscription app. Easily one of the most valuable music purchases I've made.
- commakozzi 2y ago
  it's also great being able to change tempo, style, key, etc. iReal Pro is used by every pro musician i know around town
junebash 2y ago
[dead]
neonscribe 2y ago
iReal Pro is a great resource, but what it provides are not lead sheets, they are just chord charts. Lead sheets have the melody of the song in standard notation, along with chord names and sometimes lyrics. iReal Pro's charts give chord names only.
- em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
  I get very frustrated with cats on the stage who rely too much on the iReal Pro. If they don't know the melody, then they easily get lost when, for instance, an intro or other section is skipped (such as when the singer re-enters on the bridge after solos), and in general their comping tends to not be aware of how the melody fits in with the changes. At least when reading a leadsheet, readers know how the melody and harmony interact and can better play fills around the melody.
  - analog31 2y ago
    Indeed it's worth mentioning, to a general audience, that iRealPro only displays the harmonies (chord changes) for tunes, and not melodies. Whereas, "fake books" include both melody and harmony. The reason is that copyright only covers melody and lyrics, not harmony. So the harmonies are essentially public domain.
CephalopodMD 2y ago
iReal pro is the new real book
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  For good and for bad. Its strengths are available to all and its gaps (melody!) and quirks (lack of variation) impact everyone’s development.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    This was true of the real book too. Quite a lot of the songs have incorrect transcriptions, sometimes they use a different key than the original, or the "original" key when a different one is more commonly heard. All editions of it I've seen have this to a significant extent, of course with differences making it even more confusion sometimes. And a lot of natural variation has been elided with these tools, a lot of jazz classics I'm pretty sure didn't really have a "standard" version until after the real book took over; different fake books were popular in different cities and so there was regional performance variation that we don't see much of anymore. There are probably novel issues introduced by the ireal fakes but a lot of them are the same problems my grandfather was observing as a young working musician when the real book became so dominant. They are extremely real downsides of these tools though.
    - shermantanktop 2y ago
      Yep, it’s just the learning process. But when there’s a monoculture of learning tools, the downsides can become a communal gap. A looper pedal and an AirStep Play are helpful antidotes for me.

WorkerBee28474 2y ago

This seems to be another embodiment of Gabe Newell's "Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem."

etyp 2y ago

The Real Book was pretty fundamental helping me learn jazz. I think a lot of jazz people look down on it (or those who need it), but I didn't really get deep enough to see that. There's a short video from Adam Neely that opened my eyes to that a bit. https://youtu.be/dD0e5e6wI_A?feature=shared https://youtu.be/dD0e5e6wI_A?feature=shared

xanderlewis 2y ago
Who looks down on the Real Book?
- brian_spiering 2y ago
  The Real Book is an excellent resource for what it is. However since it is the primary book of jazz, it can have too much of an influence. The Real Book has a limited number of songs and entire subgenres of jazz are not represented. The structure of the songs is relatively narrow. Songs are rarely added.
  - neonscribe 2y ago
    There are now six volumes of Real Books from Hal Leonard, plus a several others organized around genres or artists, plus the Sher Music books. A few thousand songs. Not every player has every book, but they are all available. Most songs are available for purchase for a few dollars each as downloadable PDFs.
- ahipple 2y ago
  Anybody who's worked with it for any length of time knows that the charts contained are good enough for jam session purposes but either contain inaccuracies when compared to the canonical versions of songs or may have been based on the "wrong" (according to some) canonical versions. Working this out means developing your ears and listening both to the original recordings and to the musicians you're playing with in a given situation. Many people end up in a place where they're just using their ears and memory to skip the book entirely, which in some situations is an essential skill. Most level-headed people I think regard the book as a useful tool, a step in the growth journey. As egos and insecurities enter the mix you'll occasionally find somebody who'll proclaim that the Real Book is purely a crutch and you should start and end with the ear-training bits or you're "doing it wrong".

pjdesno 2y ago

Someone I know who went to Berklee in the early 90s said that it was a required text for certain jazz classes, and you had to buy it from a bootlegger.

evereverever 2y ago
I went to school in Minnesota and we had to go to a certain music store and ask a specific employee for the book. I believe it was $50. It was basically required to play jazz.
- mvidal01 2y ago
  I remember when my brother (a teenager at the time) bought his book he had to give his music teachers name and the employee called for a reference.
sbuttgereit 2y ago
I was at Berklee in the late 80s and that's a pretty accurate statement both for the requirement and procurement. Your friend was there close enough to the time that I was there that it was probably the same thing. There was "a guy" that hung out around the school... I'd usually see him somewhere around the intersection of Mass Ave and Boylston... And he was known as the guy to talk to if you wanted a real book (and probably other stuff as well). Every once in a while you'd see him just running off down the street like he was being chased or something (never saw a pursuer) though it was said every once in a while they'd try and busy him. I didn't actually get my copy from him ... My high school band teacher was a pretty accomplished bebop guy that burned out playing in the house bands in Vegas and "retired" to teaching.... So he hooked those students of his up that had an interest in small group playing or gigging. So had my copy before going to Berklee.
dhosek 2y ago
I remember a friend managed to get a copy of a real book in the 90s and was so excited about it. When I sat down to play some tunes out of it, I was unfamiliar with the notation where Cmin7 was written C-7 and CMaj7 was C△. I figured out the latter, but thought the former was Cdim7 which led to some weird harmonizations before I figured it out.

MrMcCall 2y ago

One of my favorite jokes: Guy decides to go deep into Africa up the Congo River. After getting to the last easily accessible entry into the river, they board the smallish boat to begin the arduous trek deep into darkest Africa. A day or three into the journey they start hearing distant drums, then as they continued after some days it got slowly louder. The guy started getting spooked and asks the Captain, "What's up with those drums?" The Captain replies, "Don't worry. Everything's perfectly fine so long as they continue." After more days of journeying, suddenly, one night, the drums just stop cold. Fearfully, the guy inquires, "WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!" The Captain replies, "Bass solo."

h-c-c 2y ago
A married couple hasn't spoken to each other in 10 years. Their daughter seeks out the best marriage counselor she can find and gets her parents to agree to go to a session. After their first visit the daughter follows up with the therapist and asks if he could get them to talk to each other. "Not this time, but we have another appointment next week. I'll take another crack at it." The parents show up to their next appointment. The therapist is trying everything he can think of to get them to speak to each other. Because he has a reputation to uphold he's getting a little worried. He tells the daughter, "We've got another appointment next week and I've got one last thing I can try." When the married couple steps into the therapist's office, therapist doesn't say a word but pulls out an upright bass out of his closet and starts playing a solo. They immediately start talking.
- glimshe 2y ago
  You two! Bass solos can be great! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0PN8RrEZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0PN8RrEZI
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    Thanks, I've never heard of them before. Excellent. For whatever reason, we love this session by this incredible jazz band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pYHCGYJbw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pYHCGYJbw0 "Enjoy." --Daniel Tosh

titaphraz 2y ago

It's insane to think that so many owe so much to an contraband book. There's a very good podcast about (music) copyright and how it's used and abused. The podcast is mainly about Men At Work's "Down Under" and the crazy copyright case that hit them: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-xqda4-23ebff8b https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-xqda4-23ebff8b

seabre 2y ago

This brings up a lot of memories. I got lost on the way to jazz school and studied CS instead. Still went to school on a partial music scholarship. Wound-up playing so much anyway that it killed my grades. Worked out in the end, lol. If you have a copy of the "illegal" Real Book you'll notice that there are a lot of Steve Swallow tunes in there :-) There are definitely people that look down on using the Real Books/iReal as a crutch. IMHO it's not a huge deal. But, it is widely encouraged to learn as many commonly called tunes as you can though. You can find lists of those in various places: https://www.shermusic.com/1883217040.php https://www.shermusic.com/1883217040.php and https://www.shermusic.com/1883217482.php https://www.shermusic.com/1883217482.php for example. The reason for that honestly is that you will find yourself in a scenario where something called isn't in your book. Popular chord changes get re-used a lot, so the more material you know can help you "figure out" the unknown tune quickly. Called tune just rhythm changes? Blues changes? So What/Impressions changes? etc.

mirawelner 2y ago

It brings me so much happiness that there is enough overlap between software people and jazz playing people that this is on the front page