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Solar and wind and batteries and EVs and heat pumps are probably the better options for quickly making a difference. There's a culture war about each item on t

Solar and wind and batteries and EVs and heat pumps are probably the better options for quickly making a difference. There's a culture war about each item on that list, oddly enough.

sshine 2y ago
There’s a culture war about heat pumps? I know that the taxation on renewables is always touchy because the technology and how electricity gets routed and used changed faster than tax law.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  Yes, especially AfD in Germany but in other countries too: https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-lambrou-alternative-for-germany-heat-pump-election-climate-change/ https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-lambrou-alternative-f...
  - roenxi 2y ago
    That seems like a bit of a misinterpretation of what is being described in the article - there isn't any controversy about heatpumps. According to the article the controversy is a law making it mandatory to buy something that costs €17,000 which is close enough to double the price of a reasonable alternative. The thing being heat pumps doesn't really an issue. It is the same as the "anti-solar" push back in the day. It was pointed out at the time that Germany's initial Energiewende push was going to be a disaster and they ended up with some of the most expensive electricity in Europe for a while there. Again, that isn't an anti-solar or anti-wind observation. That is an observation that the people running the electricity grid are incompetent and verging on enemies to German prosperity. It makes a lot of sense that people like the AfD if they can consistently pitch "we're not going to just slug you for thousands of euros" but that isn't an anti-heat-pump stance. There isn't resistance to any particular technology, if it made sense to use I'd expect general support for the idea. The controversy is the people who are insisting on driving the costs up for no reason are quite controversial, because they are morons and shouldn't be in charge of anything. My theory is post-WWII the British did something to permanently screw up the ability of the German elite circles to function, it is quite stunning to watch them struggle to understand why people might not like expensive, scarce energy and ongoing visible money wasting projects.
    - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
      So there's no controversy about heat pumps other than a) opposition to regulations that aim to transition to them, b) simplistic arguments against them based on upfront cost? And c) then you flatly state they don't make sense. And then finally, just as a massive and unnecessary cherry on top, you come up with a wild stabbed-in-the-back/mind-control conspiracy theory to explain why your opinion differs from the experts in Germany (and the rest of the world).
      - sshine 2y ago
        What roenxi is saying is that if heatpumps weren't being forced on people, they wouldn't be controversial. If solar panels were forced on people, they would be equally opposed. Transition to solar/wind is temporarily costly to the individual in itself because energy prices are no longer fixed 24/7. So maintaining your energy budget means adjusting your usage to different time periods. When the individual citizen's energy expense is further increased because they themselves have to buy equipment, then that becomes an issue of funding rather than the technology. They would not be equally opposed to large tax-funded energy systems, so it's not a criticism of the technology itself.
        ZeroGravitas 2y ago
        The AfD are very clear that they're against any action on climate change so pretending they have principled stances against the process for rolling out heat pumps is gaslighting. Their own general stance: > The AfD rejects any policy and tax that claims to be for alleged climate protection because humans cannot protect the climate. We also want to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement. ... The alleged scientific consensus on "man-made climate change" has always been politically constructed...The predictions of the IPCC are based on inadequate models. The warnings of the so-called "climate science" have completely shifted from the predicted ice age of the 1970s to the currently claimed "global warming". ... On the contrary, CO2 has proven to be a driver of enhanced global plant growth, thereby benefiting global food security. ... The AfD vehemently rejects this goal and the associated societal restructuring. This also includes the EU's Green Deal, which is destroying the European economy and thus our prosperity. Which directly supports their specific heat pump policy: > Lifting the ban on gas and oil heating systems. In a technology-neutral heating sector, inexpensive gas, preferably from pipelines or heating oil will be available again. None of the so-called renewable energies or the proposed new applications, such as heat pumps or electric mobility, can survive in the market without subsidies, while conventional energies are artificially made more expensive or banned Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/germany-election-2025-what-the-manifestos-say-on-energy-and-climate-change/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/germany-election-2025-what-the-m... Why are you trying to pass this off as reasonable differences on approach?
ben_w 2y ago
PV, yes indeed makes a difference and quickly. But I've not seen much culture war on this. (There was however a group on my street protesting, simultaneously, wind turbines and 5G…) Heat pumps are also good, but (as far as I can tell) burdened with a high sticker price. Great option when you replace an existing heating system at the end of life or a new build (we've got one in our new build), but I wouldn't say they are a "quickly" making a difference. You're right about them being a culture war item though. I've seen political posters around here by people upset by them. Batteries are cheap these days, but I think we're still a way off from manufacturing at the scale needed for "quickly". The factories are going up pretty quickly, just not fast enough given the context of "can we stop giving any money to oil and gas producing countries we no longer like?" I think the hard part of batteries isn't culture war at the moment, it's that people are still pattern matching the term to AA's and drawing false conclusions about what's possible.

Solar and wind and batteries and EVs and heat pumps are probably the better options for quickly making a difference. There's a culture war about each item on that list, oddly enough.

sshine 2y ago

There’s a culture war about heat pumps? I know that the taxation on renewables is always touchy because the technology and how electricity gets routed and used changed faster than tax law.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago
Yes, especially AfD in Germany but in other countries too: https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-lambrou-alternative-for-germany-heat-pump-election-climate-change/ https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-lambrou-alternative-f...
- roenxi 2y ago
  That seems like a bit of a misinterpretation of what is being described in the article - there isn't any controversy about heatpumps. According to the article the controversy is a law making it mandatory to buy something that costs €17,000 which is close enough to double the price of a reasonable alternative. The thing being heat pumps doesn't really an issue. It is the same as the "anti-solar" push back in the day. It was pointed out at the time that Germany's initial Energiewende push was going to be a disaster and they ended up with some of the most expensive electricity in Europe for a while there. Again, that isn't an anti-solar or anti-wind observation. That is an observation that the people running the electricity grid are incompetent and verging on enemies to German prosperity. It makes a lot of sense that people like the AfD if they can consistently pitch "we're not going to just slug you for thousands of euros" but that isn't an anti-heat-pump stance. There isn't resistance to any particular technology, if it made sense to use I'd expect general support for the idea. The controversy is the people who are insisting on driving the costs up for no reason are quite controversial, because they are morons and shouldn't be in charge of anything. My theory is post-WWII the British did something to permanently screw up the ability of the German elite circles to function, it is quite stunning to watch them struggle to understand why people might not like expensive, scarce energy and ongoing visible money wasting projects.
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    So there's no controversy about heat pumps other than a) opposition to regulations that aim to transition to them, b) simplistic arguments against them based on upfront cost? And c) then you flatly state they don't make sense. And then finally, just as a massive and unnecessary cherry on top, you come up with a wild stabbed-in-the-back/mind-control conspiracy theory to explain why your opinion differs from the experts in Germany (and the rest of the world).
    - sshine 2y ago
      What roenxi is saying is that if heatpumps weren't being forced on people, they wouldn't be controversial. If solar panels were forced on people, they would be equally opposed. Transition to solar/wind is temporarily costly to the individual in itself because energy prices are no longer fixed 24/7. So maintaining your energy budget means adjusting your usage to different time periods. When the individual citizen's energy expense is further increased because they themselves have to buy equipment, then that becomes an issue of funding rather than the technology. They would not be equally opposed to large tax-funded energy systems, so it's not a criticism of the technology itself.
      - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
        The AfD are very clear that they're against any action on climate change so pretending they have principled stances against the process for rolling out heat pumps is gaslighting. Their own general stance: > The AfD rejects any policy and tax that claims to be for alleged climate protection because humans cannot protect the climate. We also want to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement. ... The alleged scientific consensus on "man-made climate change" has always been politically constructed...The predictions of the IPCC are based on inadequate models. The warnings of the so-called "climate science" have completely shifted from the predicted ice age of the 1970s to the currently claimed "global warming". ... On the contrary, CO2 has proven to be a driver of enhanced global plant growth, thereby benefiting global food security. ... The AfD vehemently rejects this goal and the associated societal restructuring. This also includes the EU's Green Deal, which is destroying the European economy and thus our prosperity. Which directly supports their specific heat pump policy: > Lifting the ban on gas and oil heating systems. In a technology-neutral heating sector, inexpensive gas, preferably from pipelines or heating oil will be available again. None of the so-called renewable energies or the proposed new applications, such as heat pumps or electric mobility, can survive in the market without subsidies, while conventional energies are artificially made more expensive or banned Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/germany-election-2025-what-the-manifestos-say-on-energy-and-climate-change/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/germany-election-2025-what-the-m... Why are you trying to pass this off as reasonable differences on approach?

ben_w 2y ago

PV, yes indeed makes a difference and quickly. But I've not seen much culture war on this. (There was however a group on my street protesting, simultaneously, wind turbines and 5G…) Heat pumps are also good, but (as far as I can tell) burdened with a high sticker price. Great option when you replace an existing heating system at the end of life or a new build (we've got one in our new build), but I wouldn't say they are a "quickly" making a difference. You're right about them being a culture war item though. I've seen political posters around here by people upset by them. Batteries are cheap these days, but I think we're still a way off from manufacturing at the scale needed for "quickly". The factories are going up pretty quickly, just not fast enough given the context of "can we stop giving any money to oil and gas producing countries we no longer like?" I think the hard part of batteries isn't culture war at the moment, it's that people are still pattern matching the term to AA's and drawing false conclusions about what's possible.