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> I don't think there should be an expectation of anonymity for the specific case of operating a car on a public road. Technology allows surveillance at scale,

> I don't think there should be an expectation of anonymity for the specific case of operating a car on a public road. Technology allows surveillance at scale, and that attacks privacy in a new and deeply unintuitive direction. In the pre-information era, people still didn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in public, in that everything they did could be noted. However, that notice was far from automatic, and people were only remembered if they were memorable. That could happen from doing something or appearing out of the ordinary, or it could happen from specific interest (e.g. being followed). Nowadays, the surveillance is automatic, and hard drives don't forget. The technology allows aggregators to answer retrospective questions about the target's ordinary behaviour. People now need be concerned about how their actions today will be viewed weeks, months, or years from now if they later attract scrutiny. This technology is here today for cars and license plates, but it's only a matter of scale before it's applied to pedestrians with face, gait, or other individual recognition modalities. We don't have the social scripts to properly deal with it.

rconti 2y ago
Yeah; the risk was lower because the implementation costs were higher. Take a speeding ticket, for example. If the fine is $400, it's created with the knowledge that it'll only be triggered occasionally, and it's created as a deterrent. If I speed 50 times and get caught one time, I pay $400. If you setup a bunch of speed cameras all over town, the fine should go down to have the same impact.
- tstrimple 2y ago
  Instead municipalities have been known to tweak whatever variables they can to maximize their fees collected. In the city I live in, they illegally put speed cameras too soon after a speed change. The city fought against it and won, so the cameras stayed where they are. There is a 5mph drop right before one of the speed cameras and the road jumps up 10mph shortly after. This creates dangerous highway situations where locals aware of the cameras speed up to the camera point, slam on their brakes, and then speed off again after. There is no reason other than revenue for the speed to drop like that on a highway for such a short and straight section without abnormal entrances and exits. Throw in red light camera setups where they reduce the yellow lights to dangerous levels for everyone in order to collect more fees despite longer yellow light times being one of the most effective ways to prevent collisions in intersections. https://www.salon.com/2017/04/05/this-may-have-happened-to-you-revenue-hungry-cities-mess-with-traffic-lights-to-write-more-tickets_partner/ https://www.salon.com/2017/04/05/this-may-have-happened-to-y...
- try_the_bass 2y ago
  Or, you know, you could just speed less often?
ethbr1 2y ago
> Part of Flock’s proprietary tech determines the make and model of the vehicle and also notes if there are bumper stickers, bike racks, any other unique markings that would help identify that vehicle. That generates a “vehicle fingerprint” for every car or truck, which none of the agencies I FOIA’d would provide me. Fingerprinting gets into unlike-at-scale. At this point, we're not just talking about license plates but obvious tracking.
try_the_bass 2y ago
> Technology allows surveillance at scale, and that attacks privacy in a new and deeply unintuitive direction. Technology also allows for influencing the world at scale, and that attacks a lot of assumptions about what is "public" and "private" in new and deeply unintuitive directions, as well.

rconti 2y ago

Yeah; the risk was lower because the implementation costs were higher. Take a speeding ticket, for example. If the fine is $400, it's created with the knowledge that it'll only be triggered occasionally, and it's created as a deterrent. If I speed 50 times and get caught one time, I pay $400. If you setup a bunch of speed cameras all over town, the fine should go down to have the same impact.

tstrimple 2y ago
Instead municipalities have been known to tweak whatever variables they can to maximize their fees collected. In the city I live in, they illegally put speed cameras too soon after a speed change. The city fought against it and won, so the cameras stayed where they are. There is a 5mph drop right before one of the speed cameras and the road jumps up 10mph shortly after. This creates dangerous highway situations where locals aware of the cameras speed up to the camera point, slam on their brakes, and then speed off again after. There is no reason other than revenue for the speed to drop like that on a highway for such a short and straight section without abnormal entrances and exits. Throw in red light camera setups where they reduce the yellow lights to dangerous levels for everyone in order to collect more fees despite longer yellow light times being one of the most effective ways to prevent collisions in intersections. https://www.salon.com/2017/04/05/this-may-have-happened-to-you-revenue-hungry-cities-mess-with-traffic-lights-to-write-more-tickets_partner/ https://www.salon.com/2017/04/05/this-may-have-happened-to-y...
try_the_bass 2y ago
Or, you know, you could just speed less often?

ethbr1 2y ago

> Part of Flock’s proprietary tech determines the make and model of the vehicle and also notes if there are bumper stickers, bike racks, any other unique markings that would help identify that vehicle. That generates a “vehicle fingerprint” for every car or truck, which none of the agencies I FOIA’d would provide me. Fingerprinting gets into unlike-at-scale. At this point, we're not just talking about license plates but obvious tracking.

try_the_bass 2y ago

> Technology allows surveillance at scale, and that attacks privacy in a new and deeply unintuitive direction. Technology also allows for influencing the world at scale, and that attacks a lot of assumptions about what is "public" and "private" in new and deeply unintuitive directions, as well.