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Papers or articles like this always rub me the wrong way. They seem to take for granted that powerful elites aren't ever actually conspiring. I know they're mai

Papers or articles like this always rub me the wrong way. They seem to take for granted that powerful elites aren't ever actually conspiring. I know they're mainly addressing the low-iq/schizo ones primarily but it's still annoying considering countless "conspiracies" have been shown to be true

_aavaa_ 2y ago
I actually see it worse than that. Complaints that the powerful elite are doing X against the rest of us is reframed at “the powerful elite are in a conspiracy together to do X”. Which is no longer the original argument. Bezos and musk don’t have to conspire together to oppose unions and squash them. They both gladly do it on their own and would do so without needing to conspire. But by framing it as a conspiracy that they work together, you can now dismiss that the fact that the activity is actually happening by simply saying that there’s no proof they are working together and that it’s just a conspiracy theory.
- palmotea 2y ago
  > Bezos and musk don’t have to conspire together to oppose unions and squash them. They both gladly do it on their own and would do so without needing to conspire. > But by framing it as a conspiracy that they work together, you can now dismiss that the fact that the activity is actually happening by simply saying that there’s no proof they are working together and that it’s just a conspiracy theory. So basically, it's a straw man. Concoct a story where it's being done in a smoke-filled back room, then say it can't be true because neither Bezos or Musk are smokers. Though I do wonder if there's a more indirect conspiracy going on. Business elites all have the same interest to oppose unions: maybe they don't often get together in smoke-filled back rooms, but they can pump money into the same anti-union think tanks and consultancies, which could have a similar effect.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  Good point totally agree. If incentives are aligned there is no need for communication
  - trod1234 2y ago
    Additionally, if the market participants are few in number there is no need for explicit or direct cooperation.
- was8309 2y ago
  i wish i could upvote this 100 times. like an cop walking into a bar full of criminals. any criminal that has to ask someone what to do won't last long. plus they can actually be enemies. two guys in a beef about who owns a dog can chain up the dog and fight it out. the dog remains owned
xnx 2y ago
> considering countless "conspiracies" have been shown to be true What are some of these confirmed conspiracies? I can't think of too many significant ones. Maybe the Phoebus Cartel and tobacco health effects cover up?
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  here are three: founding of the federal reserve: https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/jekyll-island-conference https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/jekyll-island-c... operation midnight climax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax operation northwoods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
- opwieurposiu 2y ago
  A few historical examples involving the us government: MK-Ultra, COINTELPRO, Tuskegee Syphilis Study, NSA Mass Surveillance (Snowden Leak), Gulf of Tonkin Incident, Iran-Contra Affair. If I list the most recent ones it will just start a flame war.

_aavaa_ 2y ago

I actually see it worse than that. Complaints that the powerful elite are doing X against the rest of us is reframed at “the powerful elite are in a conspiracy together to do X”. Which is no longer the original argument. Bezos and musk don’t have to conspire together to oppose unions and squash them. They both gladly do it on their own and would do so without needing to conspire. But by framing it as a conspiracy that they work together, you can now dismiss that the fact that the activity is actually happening by simply saying that there’s no proof they are working together and that it’s just a conspiracy theory.

palmotea 2y ago
> Bezos and musk don’t have to conspire together to oppose unions and squash them. They both gladly do it on their own and would do so without needing to conspire. > But by framing it as a conspiracy that they work together, you can now dismiss that the fact that the activity is actually happening by simply saying that there’s no proof they are working together and that it’s just a conspiracy theory. So basically, it's a straw man. Concoct a story where it's being done in a smoke-filled back room, then say it can't be true because neither Bezos or Musk are smokers. Though I do wonder if there's a more indirect conspiracy going on. Business elites all have the same interest to oppose unions: maybe they don't often get together in smoke-filled back rooms, but they can pump money into the same anti-union think tanks and consultancies, which could have a similar effect.
snapcaster 2y ago
Good point totally agree. If incentives are aligned there is no need for communication
- trod1234 2y ago
  Additionally, if the market participants are few in number there is no need for explicit or direct cooperation.
was8309 2y ago
i wish i could upvote this 100 times. like an cop walking into a bar full of criminals. any criminal that has to ask someone what to do won't last long. plus they can actually be enemies. two guys in a beef about who owns a dog can chain up the dog and fight it out. the dog remains owned

xnx 2y ago

> considering countless "conspiracies" have been shown to be true What are some of these confirmed conspiracies? I can't think of too many significant ones. Maybe the Phoebus Cartel and tobacco health effects cover up?

recursivedoubts 2y ago
here are three: founding of the federal reserve: https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/jekyll-island-conference https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/jekyll-island-c... operation midnight climax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax operation northwoods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
opwieurposiu 2y ago
A few historical examples involving the us government: MK-Ultra, COINTELPRO, Tuskegee Syphilis Study, NSA Mass Surveillance (Snowden Leak), Gulf of Tonkin Incident, Iran-Contra Affair. If I list the most recent ones it will just start a flame war.