3 ms·

> The other makers build quality is horrendous Out of curiosity, what are you basing this on? From having spoken to people who manage IT fleets, and being the

by sofixa 2y ago

> The other makers build quality is horrendous Out of curiosity, what are you basing this on? From having spoken to people who manage IT fleets, and being the person regular people ask for advice for what device to get, with the occasional exception (which Apple also had plenty of, cf. the butterfly keyboard), you get what you pay for. A 1k-1.5k+ Asus/Dell/HP/Lenovo will get you decent and good build quality. The cheapest $500 Acer won't.

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
At work, our Windows devs use expensive XPSs that are complete crap failing constantly, both hardware and software. As someone who used Latitudes and Precisions when these were the reliable workhorses you seem to describe, the new stuff is just outrageous. (My personal laptop is still an e6440). My work machine is an M2 Pro MBP and except the shitty input HW (compared to the golden era of Thinkpads/Latitudes without chiclet keyboards) and MacOS being quite bad compared to Linux, it completely trounces the neighbouring Dells that constantly need repairs (mostly the USB-C ports and wireless cards failing).
nottorp 2y ago
Maybe if you run a fleet that's statistically true. If you're a regular person you can have incredible bad luck with specific models. Got two "2k" Lenovos at 4 year intervals. The first one worked fine but that model was known to have a weak hinge. Had to replace it three times. The second one had a known problem that some units simply stop working with the internal display and the only solution is replacing the motherboard. My unit worked about a week for me. Seller refunded me instead of repairing because it was end of the line and they didn't have replacements. Got a "2k" Asus ordered now, let's see how that goes :) Compared to that, even the one emoji keyboard macbook pro that i had worked for years. The keyboard on those models is defective by design and kept degrading, and I still think Cook should take his dried frog pills more regularly, but the rest of the laptop is still working. Not to mention my other, older apple laptops that are still just fine(tm), just obsolete.
- goosedragons 2y ago
  I think price isn't the only thing. PC gaming/consumer laptops lean pretty heavily on price to performance ratios and I think they cut build quality to do it. Business lines like Thinkpad/EliteBook tend to offer worse performance dollar for dollar but they are built better.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Yeah, I happen to need a laptop for that niche between gaming laptop and high end workstation. Where's a Thinkpad that can run Maya comfortably for a student? AFAIK they only have models with Quadros that have anything but student prices. So I'm stuck with "gaming" models. Besides my daughter likes the bling :) If only they could sell me something that doesn't die in a week...
thewebguyd 2y ago
> A 1k-1.5k+ Asus/Dell/HP/Lenovo will get you decent and good build quality. And it still won't be on par with a $999 apple silicon air, or a MBP. I've deployed latitudes, precisions, and thinkpads. They all still make tradeoffs that you don't have to deal with on the mac. The X1 carbon is probably the "best" but, even with that - you are still getting a 1920x1200 screen unless you spend more than a MBP for the 2.8k display (which is still less than the 14" MBP, and costs more than an equivalent specced M4 pro). The trackpad is worse, the speakers are worse, battery life is worse, and they're loud under load. They're all fine for a fleet where the end user isn't the purchaser, which is why they exist, but for an individual that doesn't want tradeoffs (outside of the tradeoff of having to use macOS), there's no other option on the market that comes remotely close to the mac. For someone that wants Apple silicon MBP level hardware but wants to run Linux, there are zero options. The screen is the most egregious tradeoff though, the PC world is still adverse to HiDPI displays and even on high end models 1080p or 1200p is still the standard. I can excuse poor speakers, it is a laptop after all, if I really had to I can deal with fan noise, but I shouldn't have to spend more than a MBP to get a decent 120hz HiDPI screen with sufficient brightness and color accuracy.
- blt 2y ago
  Fully agree. Asahi is pretty good now though, and the list of missing features continues to shrink.

by sofixa 2y ago

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

At work, our Windows devs use expensive XPSs that are complete crap failing constantly, both hardware and software. As someone who used Latitudes and Precisions when these were the reliable workhorses you seem to describe, the new stuff is just outrageous. (My personal laptop is still an e6440). My work machine is an M2 Pro MBP and except the shitty input HW (compared to the golden era of Thinkpads/Latitudes without chiclet keyboards) and MacOS being quite bad compared to Linux, it completely trounces the neighbouring Dells that constantly need repairs (mostly the USB-C ports and wireless cards failing).

nottorp 2y ago

Maybe if you run a fleet that's statistically true. If you're a regular person you can have incredible bad luck with specific models. Got two "2k" Lenovos at 4 year intervals. The first one worked fine but that model was known to have a weak hinge. Had to replace it three times. The second one had a known problem that some units simply stop working with the internal display and the only solution is replacing the motherboard. My unit worked about a week for me. Seller refunded me instead of repairing because it was end of the line and they didn't have replacements. Got a "2k" Asus ordered now, let's see how that goes :) Compared to that, even the one emoji keyboard macbook pro that i had worked for years. The keyboard on those models is defective by design and kept degrading, and I still think Cook should take his dried frog pills more regularly, but the rest of the laptop is still working. Not to mention my other, older apple laptops that are still just fine(tm), just obsolete.

goosedragons 2y ago
I think price isn't the only thing. PC gaming/consumer laptops lean pretty heavily on price to performance ratios and I think they cut build quality to do it. Business lines like Thinkpad/EliteBook tend to offer worse performance dollar for dollar but they are built better.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Yeah, I happen to need a laptop for that niche between gaming laptop and high end workstation. Where's a Thinkpad that can run Maya comfortably for a student? AFAIK they only have models with Quadros that have anything but student prices. So I'm stuck with "gaming" models. Besides my daughter likes the bling :) If only they could sell me something that doesn't die in a week...

thewebguyd 2y ago

> A 1k-1.5k+ Asus/Dell/HP/Lenovo will get you decent and good build quality. And it still won't be on par with a $999 apple silicon air, or a MBP. I've deployed latitudes, precisions, and thinkpads. They all still make tradeoffs that you don't have to deal with on the mac. The X1 carbon is probably the "best" but, even with that - you are still getting a 1920x1200 screen unless you spend more than a MBP for the 2.8k display (which is still less than the 14" MBP, and costs more than an equivalent specced M4 pro). The trackpad is worse, the speakers are worse, battery life is worse, and they're loud under load. They're all fine for a fleet where the end user isn't the purchaser, which is why they exist, but for an individual that doesn't want tradeoffs (outside of the tradeoff of having to use macOS), there's no other option on the market that comes remotely close to the mac. For someone that wants Apple silicon MBP level hardware but wants to run Linux, there are zero options. The screen is the most egregious tradeoff though, the PC world is still adverse to HiDPI displays and even on high end models 1080p or 1200p is still the standard. I can excuse poor speakers, it is a laptop after all, if I really had to I can deal with fan noise, but I shouldn't have to spend more than a MBP to get a decent 120hz HiDPI screen with sufficient brightness and color accuracy.

blt 2y ago
Fully agree. Asahi is pretty good now though, and the list of missing features continues to shrink.