4 ms·

Obligatory perspective: for just the next four years! Don't have a cow.

dragonwriter 2y ago
> Obligatory perspective: for just the next four years! No, even if free and fair elections persist and even if the MAGA cult is conclusively tossed in the dustbin of history at the next Presidential election, a partner that intermittently takes radical breaks from being a partner is, ipso facto, not a reliable partner, and it takes longer to re-establish reliability than to destroy it. The change in relationship being described is significant, and will be a long-term change even in the best case. (And the change in relationship with Canada won't be the the only American relationship experiencing similar, lasting change as a result of the present Administration.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
piva00 2y ago
The damage is done, it won't be undone after the next election. USA's society has shown that is not only schizophrenic but also there's a large portion of the population who cannot see the damage they can inflict, brainwashed masses of uneducated people cheering on the sidelines for all this bullshit. There's no turning back, it will take at least another 15-20 years of constant work building trust for the US to get back to its standing pre-2025.
- palmotea 2y ago
  > USA's society has shown ... there's a large portion of the population who cannot see the damage they can inflict... People like to heap the blame on the little guy, but what you say is also true of the elites that went all-in on offshoring and globalization. A lot of the howling is from people mad their business empires are going to be hurt, who demand their interests be cared for after they were cold and uncaring to others.
- cmurf 2y ago
  The stupidity argument [1] is a possible trap. The technofascists are making the same argument: The masses are morons. But they extrapolate to claiming the masses therefore cannot self-govern, as evidenced by what has happened and is now happening. Democracy must be swept aside for the superior people, the oligarchy, to run the show. I don't even know what the question is. Is there a threshold function? Is there a critical mass of stupidity beyond which all hope is lost and we just have to go through the ugly process of tyranny and its eventual collapse? But what if technology can provide a superior tyranny, in effect flawless totalitarianism? The hope part of the puzzle seems unpredictable. [1] Bonhöffer seems apt here, a Lutheran pastor killed by the Nazis, who consider stupidity a greater threat to good than evil.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    The argument is mainly false, because regular democracy already recognizes that the masses are morons, and does not let them self-govern. It's a kind of theatre whereby we elect certain representatives but the vast bulk of the government bureaucracy stays the same. Trump and Co. are testing/challenging that system in a way: they are trying to wrestle power away from that immovable mountain of bureaucracy, into the hands of the elected government, and that bureaucracy, used to taking their immovability for granted (along with their jobs and budget money) isn't liking it.
    - cmurf 2y ago
      This is nonsense. The bureaucracy is created by Congressional statute. The Constitutional order obligates the president to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed and the president takes an oath to that effect. This president is acting deliberately contrary to these statutes, a violation of the oath of office, and reasonably makes the president's motives questionable if not illegitimate. A president can veto a bill passed by Congress. It doesn't become law. The Congress can override the veto and it does become law, that any law obligates the president. Not even in the most extreme case of the unitary executive hypothesis can a president legitimately ignore the law. The bureaucracy is a creation of Congress. The president can veto budgets passed by Congress until there is a compromise. It's not legitimate to call only the president elected government as if the Congress has no say.
locopati 2y ago
Just because Trump should no longer be president at that time, the damage isn't magically undone. Nor has the complicit Republican party disappeared. They're not going to stop their power grab now that they're so close to getting what they've wanted for decades. It's going to take generations to undo the damage they've done.

> Obligatory perspective: for just the next four years! No, even if free and fair elections persist and even if the MAGA cult is conclusively tossed in the dustbin of history at the next Presidential election, a partner that intermittently takes radical breaks from being a partner is, ipso facto, not a reliable partner, and it takes longer to re-establish reliability than to destroy it. The change in relationship being described is significant, and will be a long-term change even in the best case. (And the change in relationship with Canada won't be the the only American relationship experiencing similar, lasting change as a result of the present Administration.)

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

piva00 2y ago

The damage is done, it won't be undone after the next election. USA's society has shown that is not only schizophrenic but also there's a large portion of the population who cannot see the damage they can inflict, brainwashed masses of uneducated people cheering on the sidelines for all this bullshit. There's no turning back, it will take at least another 15-20 years of constant work building trust for the US to get back to its standing pre-2025.

palmotea 2y ago
> USA's society has shown ... there's a large portion of the population who cannot see the damage they can inflict... People like to heap the blame on the little guy, but what you say is also true of the elites that went all-in on offshoring and globalization. A lot of the howling is from people mad their business empires are going to be hurt, who demand their interests be cared for after they were cold and uncaring to others.
cmurf 2y ago
The stupidity argument [1] is a possible trap. The technofascists are making the same argument: The masses are morons. But they extrapolate to claiming the masses therefore cannot self-govern, as evidenced by what has happened and is now happening. Democracy must be swept aside for the superior people, the oligarchy, to run the show. I don't even know what the question is. Is there a threshold function? Is there a critical mass of stupidity beyond which all hope is lost and we just have to go through the ugly process of tyranny and its eventual collapse? But what if technology can provide a superior tyranny, in effect flawless totalitarianism? The hope part of the puzzle seems unpredictable. [1] Bonhöffer seems apt here, a Lutheran pastor killed by the Nazis, who consider stupidity a greater threat to good than evil.
- kazinator 2y ago
  The argument is mainly false, because regular democracy already recognizes that the masses are morons, and does not let them self-govern. It's a kind of theatre whereby we elect certain representatives but the vast bulk of the government bureaucracy stays the same. Trump and Co. are testing/challenging that system in a way: they are trying to wrestle power away from that immovable mountain of bureaucracy, into the hands of the elected government, and that bureaucracy, used to taking their immovability for granted (along with their jobs and budget money) isn't liking it.
  - cmurf 2y ago
    This is nonsense. The bureaucracy is created by Congressional statute. The Constitutional order obligates the president to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed and the president takes an oath to that effect. This president is acting deliberately contrary to these statutes, a violation of the oath of office, and reasonably makes the president's motives questionable if not illegitimate. A president can veto a bill passed by Congress. It doesn't become law. The Congress can override the veto and it does become law, that any law obligates the president. Not even in the most extreme case of the unitary executive hypothesis can a president legitimately ignore the law. The bureaucracy is a creation of Congress. The president can veto budgets passed by Congress until there is a compromise. It's not legitimate to call only the president elected government as if the Congress has no say.

locopati 2y ago

Just because Trump should no longer be president at that time, the damage isn't magically undone. Nor has the complicit Republican party disappeared. They're not going to stop their power grab now that they're so close to getting what they've wanted for decades. It's going to take generations to undo the damage they've done.