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Unfortunately they are trained first and foremost as plausibility engines. The central dogma is that plausibility will (with continuing progress & scale) conver

Unfortunately they are trained first and foremost as plausibility engines. The central dogma is that plausibility will (with continuing progress & scale) converge towards correctness, or "faithfulness" as it's sometimes called in the literature. This remains very far from proven. The null hypothesis that would be necessary to reject, therefore, is a most unfortunate one, viz. that by training for plausibility we are creating the world's most convincing bullshit machines.

uoaei 2y ago
One man's "plausibility" is another person's "barely reasoned bullshit". I think you're being generous, because LLMs explicitly don't deal in facts, they deal in making stuff up that is vaguely reminiscent of fact. Only a few companies are even trying to make reasoning (as in axioms-cum-deductions, i.e., logic per se) a core part of the models, and they're really struggling to hand-engineer the topology and methodology necessary for that to work roughly as facsimile of technical reasoning.
- inopinatus 2y ago
  I’m not really being generous. I merely think if I’m gonna condemn something as high-profile snake oil for the tragically gullible, it’s helpful to have a solid basis for doing so. And it’s also important to allow oneself to be wrong about something, however remote the possibility may currently seem, and preferably without having to revise one’s principles to recognise it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jppope 2y ago
As a sort of related anecdote... if you remember the days before google, people sitting around your dinner table arguing about stuff used to spew all sorts of bullshit then drop that they have a degree from XYZ university and they won the argument... when google/wikipedia came around turned out that those people were in fact just spewing bullshit. I'm sure there was some damage but it feels like a similar thing. Our "bullshit-radar" seems to be able to adapt to these sorts of things.
- Wololooo 2y ago
  Well, with every conspiracy theories thriving on this day and age with access to technology and information at one fingertips. If you add that now the US administration effectively spewing bullshit every few minutes. The best example of this was an arguement I had a little while ago where I was talking about self driving and I was mentioning that I have a hard time trusting any system relying only on cameras, to which I was being told that I didn't understand how machine learning works and obviously they were correct and I was wrong and every car would be self driving within 5 years. All of these things could easily be verified independently. Suffice to say that I am not sure that the "bullshit-radar" is that adaptive... Mind you, this is not limited to the particular issue at hand but I think those situations needs to be highlighted, because we get fooled easily by authoritative delivery...
  - trashtester 2y ago
    Language models are closing the gaps that still remain at an amazing rate. There are still a few gaps, but if we consider what has happened just in the last year, and extrapolated 2-3 years out....
mdp2021 2y ago
> plausibility [would] converge towards correctness That is the most horribly dangerous idea, as we demand that the agent guesses not, even - and especially - when the agent is a champion at guessing - we demand that the agent checks. If G guesses from the multiplication table with remarkable success, we more strongly demand that G computes its output accurately instead. Oracles that, out of extraordinary average accuracy, people may forget are not computers, are dangerous.
trashtester 2y ago
If the training data had a lot of humans saying "I don't know", then the LLM's would too. Humans don't and LLM's are essentially trained to resemble most humans.

uoaei 2y ago

One man's "plausibility" is another person's "barely reasoned bullshit". I think you're being generous, because LLMs explicitly don't deal in facts, they deal in making stuff up that is vaguely reminiscent of fact. Only a few companies are even trying to make reasoning (as in axioms-cum-deductions, i.e., logic per se) a core part of the models, and they're really struggling to hand-engineer the topology and methodology necessary for that to work roughly as facsimile of technical reasoning.

inopinatus 2y ago
I’m not really being generous. I merely think if I’m gonna condemn something as high-profile snake oil for the tragically gullible, it’s helpful to have a solid basis for doing so. And it’s also important to allow oneself to be wrong about something, however remote the possibility may currently seem, and preferably without having to revise one’s principles to recognise it.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jppope 2y ago

As a sort of related anecdote... if you remember the days before google, people sitting around your dinner table arguing about stuff used to spew all sorts of bullshit then drop that they have a degree from XYZ university and they won the argument... when google/wikipedia came around turned out that those people were in fact just spewing bullshit. I'm sure there was some damage but it feels like a similar thing. Our "bullshit-radar" seems to be able to adapt to these sorts of things.

Wololooo 2y ago
Well, with every conspiracy theories thriving on this day and age with access to technology and information at one fingertips. If you add that now the US administration effectively spewing bullshit every few minutes. The best example of this was an arguement I had a little while ago where I was talking about self driving and I was mentioning that I have a hard time trusting any system relying only on cameras, to which I was being told that I didn't understand how machine learning works and obviously they were correct and I was wrong and every car would be self driving within 5 years. All of these things could easily be verified independently. Suffice to say that I am not sure that the "bullshit-radar" is that adaptive... Mind you, this is not limited to the particular issue at hand but I think those situations needs to be highlighted, because we get fooled easily by authoritative delivery...
- trashtester 2y ago
  Language models are closing the gaps that still remain at an amazing rate. There are still a few gaps, but if we consider what has happened just in the last year, and extrapolated 2-3 years out....

mdp2021 2y ago

> plausibility [would] converge towards correctness That is the most horribly dangerous idea, as we demand that the agent guesses not, even - and especially - when the agent is a champion at guessing - we demand that the agent checks. If G guesses from the multiplication table with remarkable success, we more strongly demand that G computes its output accurately instead. Oracles that, out of extraordinary average accuracy, people may forget are not computers, are dangerous.

trashtester 2y ago

If the training data had a lot of humans saying "I don't know", then the LLM's would too. Humans don't and LLM's are essentially trained to resemble most humans.